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Peter Anderson




Location: Holland, USA
Joined: 22 Mar 2013

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri 10 May, 2013 8:45 am    Post subject: 11th century sword suspension         Reply with quote

Hello,

I'm looking for information on sword suspension, either belts or baldrics, from the 11th century especially circa 1066-1070. I'm particularly interested in English/Saxon, Irish, and Norman suspensions.

I was thinking the typical Norman/Crusader suspension with the laced scabbard would be appropriate, wie so. However, I'm a ltitle confused by what time periods it is actually appropriate for. That Albion page says 10th to 11th century; previously I'd thought it was more 11th-13th; yesterday I saw (although I cannot recall where) an implication that it came into fashion more in the 12th century. Also, I'm a little intimidated by the thought of trying to lace my own, and I can't afford to purchase one.

As far as Saxon and Irish, I have no idea.

For Viking, I found these two threads: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12131 & http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18104
They seem pretty in-depth and unless there are some pressing issues I should know I think I'm satisfied.

On a more experimental note, I'm also wondering what might be done for a Welsh scabbard suspension of the same period. I'm sure I could get away with using whatever a Saxon or Viking style, but I'd like something more distinctive. Perhaps borrowing from an Irish source? Then again perhaps the Irish would at this point have something fairly nordic themselves.
I am almost tempted to use a Roman sort of baldric with four scabbard rings and a single split-end baldric. But that's far too anachronistic for my taste I think.

Any help I can get is welcome!

Cheers,
Pete
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Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
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PostPosted: Fri 10 May, 2013 11:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 11th C is period that seems to be the transition point away from the Carolingian/Viking style into the later "integral" style suspensions.

The only examples surviving from the 11th C that I am personally aware of are some scabbard leathers from York that clearly show piercing in the leather as was used in some form of "integral" belts.

Other than that we have artwork from the period.

The type labeled "18" and variations of it shows up fairly often, and I believe it is the artistic depiction of the standard X style "integral" belt

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Peter Anderson




Location: Holland, USA
Joined: 22 Mar 2013

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri 10 May, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm having trouble interpreting those illustrations. But that does help, thank you.

Robin Smith wrote:
The 11th C is period that seems to be the transition point away from the Carolingian/Viking style into the later "integral" style suspensions.

So things like strap bridges and rings are probably out?
For the Welsh scabbard, on the other hand, perhaps a slightly outdated method would be acceptable. Wales seems to have often been a little behind the fashion curve, from what I understand.

Robin Smith wrote:
The only examples surviving from the 11th C that I am personally aware of are some scabbard leathers from York that clearly show piercing in the leather as was used in some form of "integral" belts.

Ooh. Do you have any links for these? I would love to see them.
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Peter Anderson




Location: Holland, USA
Joined: 22 Mar 2013

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri 10 May, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seeing that image you posted, it occurred to me to do another Google search... this time in German Happy
I found this:
http://www.reenactment.de/reenactment_start/r...heide.html
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,287

PostPosted: Fri 10 May, 2013 10:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a useful page, Peter. There's an image in the Roda Bible (1050-1100) as well, but it is lacking in detail. The central lower figure's belt seems to be even, rather than offset, on both sides of the scabbard.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/biblia-sancti...atin/6641/


Although this miniature is from c. 1175, it seems to give a more detailed view of the "Type 18" suspension system. Perhaps there was some attempt to give Goliath antiquated or obsolescent equipment to enhance his "foreignness".
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-kb-76-e-11/4500/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Peter Anderson




Location: Holland, USA
Joined: 22 Mar 2013

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Fri 10 May, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's excellent, Mark! Thank you. The belt setup on Goliath is really interesting... it does have the typical crossed X lacing, but the belt is at the same level on both sides, and actually looks like a continuous loop going through a single surface slit, unless I'm reading that wrong.
Anyway, great finds. I think I'm going to tag those with "sword suspension" for future searches.

In the meantime, I've just finished this sketch based on the German scabbard (for the Saxon) the standard Norman laced scabbard (for the Norman...) and a rather archaic but simple suspension from the ninth century as in that illustration there (for the Welsh) with an alternate idea that's based on the vertical strap bridge/slider suspension here without the strap bridge.


(the pic links through to a larger version)

Thoughts?
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Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
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PostPosted: Sat 11 May, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nicely done Peter! I'll take one of each please! Wink
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,287

PostPosted: Sat 11 May, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Anderson wrote:
The belt setup on Goliath is really interesting... it does have the typical crossed X lacing, but the belt is at the same level on both sides, and actually looks like a continuous loop going through a single surface slit, unless I'm reading that wrong.


Perhaps it's one long continuous belt through 8 slits, 2 front and 6 back?

Front
(F1) (F2)
(B1) (B2)


(B3) (B4)
(B5) (B6)

Belt enters F1, wraps internally and exits B1
Belt crosses externally downward diagonally from B1 to B4 and re-enters
Belt wraps internally and exits B5, wrapping horizontally on the outside and re-enters B6
Belt wraps internally and exits B3
Belt wraps externally upward diagonally from B3 to B2 and re-enters
Belt wraps internally and exits F2

Of course, I could be reading it wrong as well!

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Peter Anderson




Location: Holland, USA
Joined: 22 Mar 2013

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Sat 11 May, 2013 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, nice one, Mark! Hard to say if that's what it is, but I should certainly think that would work. Well figured. I'm half tempted to try that for the Norman, just to be different...


Thanks Tim! So would I. Big Grin
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