Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Albion Burgundian Sword Questions (also the Lancaster) Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 3,968

PostPosted: Mon 06 May, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Albion Burgundian Sword Questions (also the Lancaster)         Reply with quote

If anyone owns or has handled the Albion Burgundian, could you please tell what you think of it? It seems to be one of the lesser known Albions - there hasn't been much talk about it on the forums. It uses the same hollow ground blade as the Kingmaker, but is significantly less expensive. That hollow ground cross-section probably diminishes its ablilities as a cutter, while improving its thrusting properties.


 Attachment: 18.94 KB
Burgundian2.jpg
Photo From Albion Europe

 Attachment: 95.62 KB
Burgundian3s.jpg
Photo from Albion Europe


Last edited by Roger Hooper on Mon 06 May, 2013 10:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Mon 06 May, 2013 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It has been too long since I've handled the Burgundian to say much about its handling. I didn't spend much time with it at the Albion booth as other pieces held my attention. However I do have some experience cutting with hollow ground type XVIIIs from Raven Armoury and they cut like demons. You just have to make sure the tip extends slightly past your target (less than an inch) to prevent the tip dragging and trying to rip its way through rather than cut.
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,486

PostPosted: Mon 06 May, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Had one for a bit and I recall that it looked better than it handled for me. I like the Kingmaker and the A&A Henry the 5th better from a handling standpoint. However, the Burgundian just looks sweet.

Please remember my handling opinion is an artifact of my own bias but the length and grip of the sword just felt off to me somehow. Perhaps this is really more of a nobleman's sword that is meant to be used from horseback rather than foot...and I have no horse. Perhaps you should use it with a gauntlet and I have no gauntlet. Perhaps I just really stink as a swordsman and could not adjust my preferences to this tool...fairly likely! Regardless the Burgundian just did not seem as nimble as some of the other single hand swords in the Albion lineup, or as powerful as some of the other single hand swords from what I can recall. Not bad, just not as distinct if you will.

Mileage sure to vary though...quite a bit... Confused

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
View user's profile Send private message
William Swiger




Location: Reston, VA
Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 9 books

Posts: 443

PostPosted: Mon 06 May, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have one and really like the look of the sword. It is not light in hand but has a good solid feel. I am not able to cut where I am living but feel this sword would perform as well as the Regent and Earl I have. Would be a great thruster as the blade is quite stiff.

View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 3,968

PostPosted: Mon 06 May, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies.

Let me bring another seldom talked about Albion into the discussion, The Lancaster. It's a XV and shares the same blade with the Poitier. I've heard people say that the Poitiers is very light, quick, and handy. I wonder how the different hilt furniture affects the Lancaster. To me it's a very attractive design. Does anyone have experience with this model? (and, of course more opinions on the Burgundian would be great)



 Attachment: 25.23 KB
lancaster2.jpg
Photo from Albion Europe

 Attachment: 59.77 KB
Lancaster.jpg
Photo from Albion Europe
View user's profile Send private message
Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 483

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 8:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is almost not difference in handling between the Poitiers and the Lancaster. Perhaps the Poitiers is slightly faster, but functionally they act the same. They just look different. Both are scary nimble, and dangerously fast
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
View user's profile Send private message
Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Albion Burgundian Sword Questions (also the Lancaster)         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
If anyone owns or has handled the Albion Burgundian, could you please tell what you think of it? It seems to be one of the lesser known Albions - there hasn't been much talk about it on the forums. It uses the same hollow ground blade as the Kingmaker, but is significantly less expensive. That hollow ground cross-section probably diminishes its ablilities as a cutter, while improving its thrusting properties.


That sword is sexy, I want it. As for hollow ground blades and cutting, they are some of the best cutters, there is no diminishing of cutting, there is an increase in cutting power but the edges are probably a bit more fragile than other types. I cut with a peers Albion Earl and it sliced through thick tatami with ease. They are definitely not diminished cutters.


Last edited by Christopher B Lellis on Tue 07 May, 2013 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,138

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Albion Burgundian Sword Questions (also the Lancaster)         Reply with quote

Christopher B Lellis wrote:
the edges are probably a bit more fragile than other types.


They don't have to be more fragile if the grind is done well and according to some historical examples. The Regent (which gave its blade to the Earl) is an example of the right way.

On some hollow ground swords (not the Regent), the hollow grind goes all the way to the edge, leaving a scary sharp but thin edge which could be fragile. The Regent's hollow grind stops before the edge and the edge is supported with some good meat. The hollow grinding is almost like two wide shallow fullers that don't go all the way to the edge.

I don't think I've seen the Burgundian, but I'm guessing it draws on some of the same stuff the Regent does.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Albion Burgundian Sword Questions (also the Lancaster)         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Christopher B Lellis wrote:
the edges are probably a bit more fragile than other types.


They don't have to be more fragile if the grind is done well and according to some historical examples. The Regent (which gave its blade to the Earl) is an example of the right way.

On some hollow ground swords (not the Regent), the hollow grind goes all the way to the edge, leaving a scary sharp but thin edge which could be fragile. The Regent's hollow grind stops before the edge and the edge is supported with some good meat. The hollow grinding is almost like two wide shallow fullers that don't go all the way to the edge.

I don't think I've seen the Burgundian, but I'm guessing it draws on some of the same stuff the Regent does.


Thats good to know, I've never damaged or seen damage on a hollow ground edge first hand, I was more assuming than anything from the mechanics of it. It makes me me want one of these hollow ground Albions even more.
View user's profile Send private message
Roger Hooper




Location: Northern California
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 1 page

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 3,968

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The reason I said that the Burgundian may not be the best cutter is because I read a post on this forum by Mike Harris (certainly a veteran cutter), saying that the central ridge created by a hollow ground cross-section can get in the way of a clean cut, so that it won't perform that function as well as, say a XII or XIII.

To quote him: Burgundian - A very stiff sword with both blade presence and extremely good point control. Handles great but it's not a good cutter, though it will cut. The blade is hollow ground and suffers on targets like tatami as the reinforcing central ridge makes contact with the cutting medium and imparts drag. The Burgundian definitely seems to me like the optimized swordly sidearm for fighting an armoured foe.
View user's profile Send private message
Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 5:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
The reason I said that the Burgundian may not be the best cutter is because I read a post on this forum by Mike Harris (certainly a veteran cutter), saying that the central ridge created by a hollow ground cross-section can get in the way of a clean cut, so that it won't perform that function as well as, say a XII or XIII.

To quote him: Burgundian - A very stiff sword with both blade presence and extremely good point control. Handles great but it's not a good cutter, though it will cut. The blade is hollow ground and suffers on targets like tatami as the reinforcing central ridge makes contact with the cutting medium and imparts drag. The Burgundian definitely seems to me like the optimized swordly sidearm for fighting an armoured foe.


He is more knowledgeable than me but all I know is we were triple rolling tatami mats and cutting them through no problem and other styles of edges were not as successful except for the Albion Steward, that sword is a HEAVY cutter and it's not even a big blade.
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,486

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Albion Burgundian Sword Questions (also the Lancaster)         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Christopher B Lellis wrote:
the edges are probably a bit more fragile than other types.


They don't have to be more fragile if the grind is done well and according to some historical examples. The Regent (which gave its blade to the Earl) is an example of the right way.

On some hollow ground swords (not the Regent), the hollow grind goes all the way to the edge, leaving a scary sharp but thin edge which could be fragile. The Regent's hollow grind stops before the edge and the edge is supported with some good meat. The hollow grinding is almost like two wide shallow fullers that don't go all the way to the edge.

I don't think I've seen the Burgundian, but I'm guessing it draws on some of the same stuff the Regent does.


Less aggressive grind from what I remember of it.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,486

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
The reason I said that the Burgundian may not be the best cutter is because I read a post on this forum by Mike Harris (certainly a veteran cutter), saying that the central ridge created by a hollow ground cross-section can get in the way of a clean cut, so that it won't perform that function as well as, say a XII or XIII.

To quote him: Burgundian - A very stiff sword with both blade presence and extremely good point control. Handles great but it's not a good cutter, though it will cut. The blade is hollow ground and suffers on targets like tatami as the reinforcing central ridge makes contact with the cutting medium and imparts drag. The Burgundian definitely seems to me like the optimized swordly sidearm for fighting an armoured foe.


His conclusion seems reasonable, but still I've found good or bad can come down to the person doing the cutting when talking about Albions. More often than not anyway. Mike plays enough that he may be an exception but many of us just dabble...don't really know how to use the variety of tools we have optimally until we get an ah-ha moment at some point.

I think part of the cutting complexity with the Burgundian is the furniture. I cut with the Kingmaker more proficiently last time I was cutting (which has been quite a while ago since we sold our house last year). Same blade but GOG, COP and overall weight are all slightly different, I'd assume from the furniture. Different grip shapes come into play too. Burgundian was a bit thinner as I remember. Fish tail also effectively made the grip longer for me. That could be a hand size thing but it all adds up to a similar but different sword. Different in hand anyway. Not bad mind you, just not as good for ME as the Kingmaker. Still slick looking though!

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,486

PostPosted: Tue 07 May, 2013 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher B Lellis wrote:
Roger Hooper wrote:
The reason I said that the Burgundian may not be the best cutter is because I read a post on this forum by Mike Harris (certainly a veteran cutter), saying that the central ridge created by a hollow ground cross-section can get in the way of a clean cut, so that it won't perform that function as well as, say a XII or XIII.

To quote him: Burgundian - A very stiff sword with both blade presence and extremely good point control. Handles great but it's not a good cutter, though it will cut. The blade is hollow ground and suffers on targets like tatami as the reinforcing central ridge makes contact with the cutting medium and imparts drag. The Burgundian definitely seems to me like the optimized swordly sidearm for fighting an armoured foe.


He is more knowledgeable than me but all I know is we were triple rolling tatami mats and cutting them through no problem and other styles of edges were not as successful except for the Albion Steward, that sword is a HEAVY cutter and it's not even a big blade.


Cutting with the Earl or Burgundian?

Earl is a different beast altogether from the Burgundian and I'd be careful trying to draw conclusions about one from the other. If you were cutting with the Burgundian or with both, I'll defer to your experience but your post reads that you were cutting with the Earl only, and that you are extrapolating Burgundian performance from Earl data. While the blades bear a superficial resemblance to each other its very much a superficial thing. Even the Earl and Regent which share blades are not clones of one another.

"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
View user's profile Send private message
Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Wed 08 May, 2013 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
Christopher B Lellis wrote:
Roger Hooper wrote:
The reason I said that the Burgundian may not be the best cutter is because I read a post on this forum by Mike Harris (certainly a veteran cutter), saying that the central ridge created by a hollow ground cross-section can get in the way of a clean cut, so that it won't perform that function as well as, say a XII or XIII.

To quote him: Burgundian - A very stiff sword with both blade presence and extremely good point control. Handles great but it's not a good cutter, though it will cut. The blade is hollow ground and suffers on targets like tatami as the reinforcing central ridge makes contact with the cutting medium and imparts drag. The Burgundian definitely seems to me like the optimized swordly sidearm for fighting an armoured foe.


He is more knowledgeable than me but all I know is we were triple rolling tatami mats and cutting them through no problem and other styles of edges were not as successful except for the Albion Steward, that sword is a HEAVY cutter and it's not even a big blade.


Cutting with the Earl or Burgundian?

Earl is a different beast altogether from the Burgundian and I'd be careful trying to draw conclusions about one from the other. If you were cutting with the Burgundian or with both, I'll defer to your experience but your post reads that you were cutting with the Earl only, and that you are extrapolating Burgundian performance from Earl data. While the blades bear a superficial resemblance to each other its very much a superficial thing. Even the Earl and Regent which share blades are not clones of one another.


I was simply stating that I had a positive experience with a hollow ground type blade and it cut very well.
View user's profile Send private message
Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,486

PostPosted: Wed 08 May, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From separation of posts its just not clear to me which one you were cutting with, and since this thread is about the Burgundian specifically, I am just trying to make sure I appreciated your context.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Albion Burgundian Sword Questions (also the Lancaster)
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum