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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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Posts: 257

PostPosted: Wed 01 May, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: mail voiders-ish?         Reply with quote

So I've been researching various forms of how mail was used with plate armour and I came across this image. I had originally thought of doing voiders, but it would be a big hassle to undo them and such every time I wanted to clean them :/ Plus I've seen many jousters use them and they keep "popping" out towards the bottom where the ribs are. So...I've documented this to be done in the mid 15th century and I saw that the mail looks to be loose at the bottom. Maybe it gets "tucked" into the body once you add the cuirass?

Do you think this will be a good alternative to voiders?

Thanks in advance!
-Reece



 Attachment: 48.61 KB
1450Pisanellovoiders.jpg


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71781_170015436343909_100000063627024_594968_5709751_n.jpg
Here is what I was talking about the voiders "popping" out
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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Wed 01 May, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know literally nothing about voiders, but I had always imagined that they were tailored and sewn all along the edges--like a metal over-gore for the armpits
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Robert MacPherson
Industry Professional



Location: Jeffersonville USA
Joined: 27 Feb 2008

Posts: 141

PostPosted: Wed 01 May, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Reece,

Look at the pic of the reenactor who is having the "wardrobe malfunction". The armpits of his mail are about a hand's breadth from his body. The mail can't help but pop out as soon as he lifts his arms.

The important things are that the mail must have a reasonable armpit construction, and that some means must keep it close to the body.

The voiders on
the 15th C fellow in the first pic appear to go on like a short vest. Provided that it is tailored well, it looks like a very convenient solution.

Mac

Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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Posts: 257

PostPosted: Wed 01 May, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: mail voiders-ish?         Reply with quote

Thank you for the replies Big Grin


I imagine once the cuirass is attached the mail has little room to move around, but I'm curious once someone would thrust in the armpit and couch it like you see in the fight manuals, if it would then shift itself upward and "slip" out Worried

Or, would the cuirass having shaped correctly with the torso prevent any sort of "slipping"? I imagine I won't know until I try it out.

Mac, do you know of anyone that has tried out this short vest style of mail?


-Reece



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39.jpg
Here is an Image from the Gladitoria fight manual.

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Here is my early 15th century cuirass. It's nicely shaped and fit to my body type [ Download ]
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Thu 02 May, 2013 4:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Think the modern guys fighting is Tournament of the Phoenix by the looks of the Hedgecock pollaxes. Cant identify the fighters though. Poss Arne Koets, maybe Toby? No idea what they were wearing, thought Dr Capwell was in a great bascinet....

Anyway, voiders simply need to be long enough and sewn /pointed on to stop that happening.

IMHO that is...

But Robert's suggestion re the vest is a good one. You could adapt a shirt easily for this and use it a bit like a padded arming partlet as suggested by various late 16th cent sources. That's a v nice picture, is he just back from a heavy bit of armoured work, or back from a serious drinking session?
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Thu 02 May, 2013 4:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Reece, can you give the ms source for the picture with the guy being carried? Thanks.
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Mark Hale




Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: 15 Sep 2006

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Thu 02 May, 2013 5:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The one on the left is Toby I think. Also for info, the first image is what Toby now has. Somewhere I have a photo as I supplied the maille to him Happy

It's certainly a good idea, kind of like a waistcoat. So essentially sleeves with side for waist and then a strip over the shoulder blades.

If I can find the photo of Toby I will post it.

www.capapie.co.uk
www.facebook.com/capapie
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Thu 02 May, 2013 7:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Mark,

My source for that image from from this thread here. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21451m

And yes, the image is from the tournament of the phoenix. The guy on the right is Arne Koets and the guy on the left is Toby Capwell.

I'd be really interested in seeing that image of Toby's mail. You do amazing work Happy

-Reece
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Tobias Capwell





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Thu 02 May, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ha! This is kinda funny, because in that picture, where I am fighting Arne, I am actually wearing a set of mail sleeves joined at the back like your first manuscript detail. Actually I made them after that very image. Works very well. Actually that one I'm wearing was made for Per Lillelund Jensen... I just sorta took it for a test-drive.... I'm in the process of making another one for myself.
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
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PostPosted: Thu 02 May, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: mail voiders-ish?         Reply with quote

Wow! That's neat!

Do you have a picture of you wearing it by itself? I'd like to see the piece in the flesh, as it were Cool Seeing you fight in it, just set aside any doubt that It wouldn't work well for what I'll be doing.

-Reece
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Mark Griffin




Location: The Welsh Marches, in the hills above Newtown, Powys.
Joined: 28 Dec 2006

Posts: 801

PostPosted: Fri 03 May, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

2 other things from the top pic. 1. He's bleeding where the mail isn't. A salutory lesson to us all.... :-) and 2. Whats going on with the waistline of the guy on the left? Some kind of split belt? Can't be a gore in the garment just there...
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Robert MacPherson
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Location: Jeffersonville USA
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PostPosted: Fri 03 May, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Griffin wrote:
Whats going on with the waistline of the guy on the left? Some kind of split belt? Can't be a gore in the garment just there...


Mark,

It has been a number of years since I saw a couple of other illustrations from that manuscript, but if my memory serves me, that's a crossbow spanning belt.

Mac

Robert MacPherson
http://www.lightlink.com/armory/
http://billyandcharlie.com/
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Fri 03 May, 2013 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's the Vatican Bibliographic Reference:
Quote:
Tamino ID: 95317
Shelfmark Ott.lat.1417,f.20r
Author Baldini, Nicoletta
Title Giovanni di ser Niccolò de' Castaldi da Fano, attribuito, Agesilao ferito trasportato in una tenda, in Giustino,
Epitoma historicarum Philippicarum Pompei Trogi.
In Piero della Francesca e le corti italiane [catalogo di mostra, Arezzo, Museo Statale d'Arte Medievale e
Moderna, 31 marzo-22 luglio 2007, a cura di Carlo Bertelli, Antonio Paolucci]
Place of publication Mialno :
Publisher Skira,
Date of publication c2007.
Note/Volume p. 219-220 e con ill. (p. 168).

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Tobias Capwell





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri 03 May, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Its a good way of doing it if a) you are wearing a style of armour which allows elbow-length sleeves worn over the vambraces and b) you don't want to be stitching mail to arming doublets.

There are a pair of sleeves in Berlin which retain their original linen edging down the front. This allows the sleeves to just be pointed up and away you go. So that's what I did and it works well.

I don't have any pictures of either of the two I've already made, but I thought I would write an article about the third one when its done. So that will have some decent images...
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
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PostPosted: Fri 03 May, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: mail voiders-ish?         Reply with quote

Tobias,

Here is my arm harness that I have. It's floating articulation and I have the vambrace and couter held by points in the doublet, then the spaulders overlap and are held by a strap.

Would this design get in the way with my arm harness?

I had thought about having my rear brace tie into the doublet to help it articulate better, so If doesn't work well with the current set up, I could try that maybe?
-Reece



 Attachment: 71.63 KB
[ Download ]
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Tobias Capwell





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Mon 06 May, 2013 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I guess it depends if your upper cannon is inseperable from the spaudler, that is, joined to it as part of a single assembly, in the late fourteenth-century manner. If yes, the Italian sleeve set-up isn't going to work for you, since the sleeves need to be worn over the upper cannons but under the shoulder defences.

If you were to wear the upper cannons seperately, then it should work for you.
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Tobias Capwell





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Wed 08 May, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's another shot from the same tournament as the one we started out with in this discussion... you can see the sleeves I was wearing a bit better. You can also see how they didn't work so well with my armour- the bottom edge can be seen sneaking out of the cuirass. The Mk. 3s will have more coverage down there...



TC
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Ben van Koert




Location: Veenendaal, the Netherlands
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Jun, 2013 1:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I use them as well. After seeing Toby's at TotP in 2010 I wanted to give this a go as my voiders were bugging me. It's a very nice system that works very well. It wears like a short jacket, I keep the front attached by two points on the arming doublet.







Fun bit: they started out as regular voiders, but they were remade into this by my awesome maille suppliers.
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 28 Jul, 2013 7:52 am    Post subject: mail voiders-ish?         Reply with quote

Great photos, Ben! I will diffidently have to give this a go!

Thanks for everyone's input in this, I think this would be a perfect route for my mail for my harness Big Grin

Ben, could you post some pictures of the mail shirt with out the armour? I'd like to see the pattern you have set up for you're s

-Reece
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Philip Dyer





Joined: 25 Jul 2013

Posts: 496

PostPosted: Wed 31 Jul, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: mail voiders-ish?         Reply with quote

Reece Nelson wrote:
Great photos, Ben! I will diffidently have to give this a go!

Thanks for everyone's input in this, I think this would be a perfect route for my mail for my harness Big Grin

Ben, could you post some pictures of the mail shirt with out the armour? I'd like to see the pattern you have set up for you're s

-Reece

Why don't you just wear a mail shirt under your breastplate, that way you have to wear at a dark ages event when you aren't going rust weenie.:P
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