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A Casalucci





Joined: 14 Dec 2012

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: helm, XIII century, or maybe artistic design?         Reply with quote

Hi guys,
Doing my research on helms in 13th century I found this picture.
Well, at first I thought it was only a fictional drawing, because there are few elements that couldn't be the same period of the context (I believe this could have been a good picture for 1250- 1280), like elbow cops or shoulders, and others that make no sense (cloack with hood while wearing a full helm).
Don't know who's the artist, maybe one of you knows, I would bet on Angus McBride, but maybe I'm wrong.

But, the important question, for me, is another one.
The shape of the elm the center knight (white and red with blue crest) is wearing, is invented? I'm supposing it could be good for 1250-70, but I don't understand why the mask if the helm is already circling the head. It could weaken the frontal protection... And the conical shape? too much for a great helm of that period? Or it's part of the very crest?

Your opinions Happy



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JŠnos Sibinger




Location: Hungary/France
Joined: 31 May 2009

Posts: 50

PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have alredy seen similar helmets on modern pictures, films, games, it is sometimes being called a Norman helmet,
but I have never seen it in old manuscripts, neither on photos as archeological finds. I would like to know a bit more about it too!

John
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr, 2013 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not certain what Figure 1 is based upon, but the plate as a whole clearly is intended to show the Livonian Swordbrothers. Based on the details of the figure, I would expect a dating from the 1270s or 1280s, escpecially with the plates at the elbow. There are some 14th century German sources showing a padded hood over the helm, but I've never seen it limited to the top section, so perhaps the artist intend this to be part of the crest of plumes? Here's an example of a shallow conical top on a helm in the English Huth Psalter of c. 1280.


Quote:
but I don't understand why the mask if the helm is already circling the head. It could weaken the frontal protection...


I'm not clear what you mean by this. Perhaps you can elaborate your concerns?

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Josh S





Joined: 15 Oct 2011

Posts: 74

PostPosted: Tue 09 Apr, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you ignore the dome at the top - which, as you said, may not be part of the helm at all- it looks very much like the so-called Maciejowski helms. I don't think there's a mask - the helmet's lower front is just painted a different color.
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A Casalucci





Joined: 14 Dec 2012

Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr, 2013 2:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

yeah, I'm strongly starting to think the top part could be decorative. About the lower front part, in (neraly?) all the great helms, the lower front is made by a plate riveted to the rear plate and to the upper plate. The design of this one seems more like a masked helm due to its shape. It is drawn to have a weaker connection to the upper plate (not directly riveted), nor I see how could have been riveted to the lower back plate... makes sense?

I know my questions could be... too much, but, just to explain, I'm re-making part of my equipment cause it's machine sewed, and not hand-sewed...
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I understand your meaning more clearly now, and agree.
ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,302

PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr, 2013 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not sure there's much point in worrying about details or functionality of armor or helmets in a modern reconstruction. Even McBride take liberties and gets things wrong, sometimes! Even just following medieval artwork too closely can cause trouble. To me this just looks like something by a good artist who doesn't know quite enough about helms! And I'm actually more curious about the wacky hat on the guy at lower right...

Use the modern artwork for inspiration, but for evidence stick with medieval artwork and archeological examples.

Matthew
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Josh S





Joined: 15 Oct 2011

Posts: 74

PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
And I'm actually more curious about the wacky hat on the guy at lower right...

That struck me as well Happy I've never seen anything quite like it, even fictionally. Although it's clearly some sort of pseudo-Corinthian... Very weird!
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David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: X11 helm         Reply with quote

I believe the artist may be Igor Dzis.
http://igor-dzisblogspotcom.blogspot.co.uk/

best
Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Peter Anderson




Location: Holland, USA
Joined: 22 Mar 2013

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Josh S wrote:
Matthew Amt wrote:
And I'm actually more curious about the wacky hat on the guy at lower right...

That struck me as well Happy I've never seen anything quite like it, even fictionally. Although it's clearly some sort of pseudo-Corinthian... Very weird!

No idea what the source is, but I've seen it before. Those are a few Osprey illustrations I have. Crestless variations also appear, but some are closer to your run-of-the-mill kettle helms, so I didn't include them.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Thu 11 Apr, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's helpful, Peter. Nicolle gives the source for the combed helm with nasal as being a column base beneath the altar in Modena Cathedral, Lombardy, Italy dating to the late 12th century. (Also appears as Fig. 582B in Arms & Armour of the Crusading Era -- Western Europe) I'll see if there's a photo online.

EDIT: Found some images, though this site suggests a dating of 1208-1225.

http://www.medioevo.org/artemedievale/pages/e...terio.html



Another column and somewhat more famous scene:


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,276

PostPosted: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Modena helm from the Osprey 195 Hungary and the fall of Eastern Europe 1000-1568 isn't the only one in the original post which seems to have been shared. Based on Peter's link, I suspect the original helm in question is somewhat copied from the Osprey Plate C, figure 1 by the late Angus McBride at the direction of David Nicolle.




Sources for the Hungarian Knight of c. 1250-1275 are listed on pp.42-3 and include a 13th century belt buckle plaque in the Hungarian National Museum (presumably the same one shown on page 12 with feather crested helms is the source - SEE ATTACHMENT.) I'm not certain where the quilted top comes from, but the right-most figure has the two side feathers, while others have a central ball or hackle. Its seems very similar to this German miniature's depiction:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/der-welsche-g...-389/3392/



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Peter Anderson




Location: Holland, USA
Joined: 22 Mar 2013

Posts: 38

PostPosted: Tue 16 Apr, 2013 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart, that's excellent! Great finds.

I think it's interesting to note that the original topic illustration does add eyeholes (rather, brow cuts... okay, is there an accepted term for those?) into the helmet brim, something that the other illustrations and the (fantastic!) column carving lack.

Good call on the other helms. Thank you for all the information!
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