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Jerome Prusak





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PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2013 7:16 pm    Post subject: Quivers for Hand Thrown Javelins and Darts?         Reply with quote

Where quivers ever made to hold other weapons than arrows, bolts, and darts (Blowgun)?
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr, 2013 8:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some early Scythian quivers doubled as bow cases--the larger "bag" is for the bow, while the smaller long "pockets" along the outer surface are used to hold the arrows in the manner of the quivers more familiar to us.

As for javelin quivers, some Central Asian and Northern African horsemen seem to have carried quivers for long darts/light javelins. These quivers may still even be in use in Turkish and/or Moroccan traditional horsemanship events.
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lafayette, pictures please! I'm dying to see these dart/javelin quivers for possible reproduction and I can't find them on the web.
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Wed 03 Apr, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Lafayette, pictures please! I'm dying to see these dart/javelin quivers for possible reproduction and I can't find them on the web.



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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks! Excellent.
So I see in the text with one of the images that the persian name for them is indeed the "Jarid" I've heard about, are they called something else in other countries that used them?

They loook almost like normal sword scabbards, especially the thinner ones with just two javelins. Intriguing to see the combination scabbards for sword and javelins.
How were they worn, for hip-, shoulder draw or attached to a saddle?

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:

How were they worn, for hip-, shoulder draw or attached to a saddle?
I have never seen an image of how the scabbards were worn. If thrown while riding i would think that they would be attached to the saddle so the rider could reach down and pull one out for throwing.






Jarid javelin, 17th-early 18th century. Steel with a hollow shaft. This was a military as well as the sporting weapon and some Turkish and Persian riders were quite adept in hitting their target from full gallop. Marsigly describes bouts at the Court of the Ottoman Sultan where the riders would square off against one another and try to score points by throwing blunt jarids with the intention of hitting the opponent in the head. 74 cm, 620 grams.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One more.

A set of three short iron Javelins,Turkey, 19th Century, each spear with a sharp point and partially wooden shaft, the iron mounts with gold damascening decoration consisting of spiralling lines and scrolling motifs, the pommel with lattice motif, the velvet scabbard with similarly decorated zig-zag iron mounts with scabbard approx. 78 cm. long
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Jerome Prusak





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PostPosted: Sat 06 Apr, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Awesome, thanks for the information and pictures. This is exactly what I was looking for! Happy

Wasn't there also a dart-like weapon called a Kestros, carried in a similar manner and what exactly is a Swiss Arrow?
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Wed 10 Apr, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jerome Prusak wrote:


Wasn't there also a dart-like weapon called a Kestros, carried in a similar manner and what exactly is a Swiss Arrow?
That is a new one to me, I will have to do some searching, have you seen the Japanese dart (uchi-ne).





http://nihon-no-katchu.proboards.com/thread/2...amp;page=1
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Jerome Prusak





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PostPosted: Sun 14 Apr, 2013 7:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, I haven't. The uchi-ne is a new weapon for me. I didn't known samurai used such a weapon.
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Bob Haynes




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PostPosted: Sun 14 Apr, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very interesting thread, I've always wondered if javelins could be carried in a quiver.

But I look at that Japanese dart, and though I like the thought of such a thing. I look at the end of it and notice what looks like what seems to be a nock. Unless I'm missing something, as with an albeit quick google search, I even keep seeing it identified as a dart. Still I can't keep my eyes off the nocks, which are also mentioned, but I haven't seen an explanation on it s far.
So I wonder... could this be rather a Japanese crossbow bolt?
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William P




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

from what i've read, the japanese stopped using crossbows around the time the samurai rose to prominence in the 1100s and such this was, apparently, due to the fact they stopped using more regular forces in the chinese model.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bob Haynes wrote:
Very interesting thread, I've always wondered if javelins could be carried in a quiver.

But I look at that Japanese dart, and though I like the thought of such a thing. I look at the end of it and notice what looks like what seems to be a nock. Unless I'm missing something, as with an albeit quick google search, I even keep seeing it identified as a dart. Still I can't keep my eyes off the nocks, which are also mentioned, but I haven't seen an explanation on it s far.
So I wonder... could this be rather a Japanese crossbow bolt?
Some uchine do not have a nock while some do, not much is known about these, its possible the the nock was just symbolic or it could be that these were able to be shot with some type of bow as well as being thrown, there is just not enough information on them to know for sure. You see a rope attached to a hole in the end of the shaft on some, supposedly used for retrieving it once it was thrown.



Here is another one with a quiver and a rope.

Quote:
"Uchine is a type of teyari (hand spear) sometimes called a Tetsukiyari, which with a wooden sheath was carried at the waist/back. Length of blade around 12 cm, this short spear was used for self-defence when riding in a Norimono/Kago, for instance."



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Eric S




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PostPosted: Mon 15 Apr, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
from what i've read, the japanese stopped using crossbows around the time the samurai rose to prominence in the 1100s and such this was, apparently, due to the fact they stopped using more regular forces in the chinese model.
William, the Japanese did have the ability to make crossbows in later times to some extent, they just were not very popular for some reason. Here is a later version, this is a very rare image, the only one that I know of, you can see the bolt is not at all like the uchine.

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Jerome Prusak





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PostPosted: Tue 16 Apr, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why didn't the samurai make more use of the crossbow?

Was it because the longbow (Yumi) took more skill and strength to master, thus making it a more honorable weapon to use in battle?
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Jerome Prusak





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PostPosted: Tue 16 Apr, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found an illustration of a Kestros, and it appears to be some kind of sling-thrown dart of Greek origin.

The slinger is carrying a small quiver worn at the hip.



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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Wed 17 Apr, 2013 5:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Javelin quivers have been around since the Bronze Age. Some Egyptian chariots had them.
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Apr, 2013 4:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jerome Prusak wrote:
Why didn't the samurai make more use of the crossbow?

Was it because the longbow (Yumi) took more skill and strength to master, thus making it a more honorable weapon to use in battle?
Jerome, there is some information here which may help answer your question. If skill, strength and honor was really that important I do not think that firearms would have been so highly thought of and sought after.


http://samuraiantiqueworld.proboards.com/inde...amp;page=1
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 19 Apr, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
Jerome Prusak wrote:
Why didn't the samurai make more use of the crossbow?

Was it because the longbow (Yumi) took more skill and strength to master, thus making it a more honorable weapon to use in battle?
Jerome, there is some information here which may help answer your question. If skill, strength and honor was really that important I do not think that firearms would have been so highly thought of and sought after.

http://samuraiantiqueworld.proboards.com/inde...amp;page=1


The short answer is: mounted archery. While there have been mounted crossbowmen (and the crossbow can be an excellent mounted hunting weapon), the mounted bow archer will do better is the very samurai task of quick short range shooting on the move. Note that the Japanese didn't adopt handguns from the Chinese (in significant numbers).

With the expansion of Japanese armies to include lots of non-samurai, especially infantry, then crossbows would have been more attractive, but then European-style firearms became available (and widely used).

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Jerome Prusak





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PostPosted: Mon 22 Apr, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I didn't even think of the matchlock firearms being utilized. Even though some samurai used them, weren't they used mainly used by the foot soldiers (ashigaru)?
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