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Alan Schiff
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Location: Las Vegas
Joined: 06 Oct 2008

Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sat 30 Mar, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Need help with Schranckhut and Nebenhut         Reply with quote

Hello everyone, just like the title says I am looking for help with the Schranckhut and Nebenhut guards. I have been dabbling in German longsword for several years, studying from various modern sources but primarily the Ochs DVD and Christian Henry Tobler's Fighting with the German Longsword. I was going through that book again today and noticed that on the aforementioned two guards Tobler aligns the edge differently than I have been doing. For the right-side (that is, left foot forward) schranckhut Tobler says that the long edge should be up, while in the left-side stance has the short edge up. I have been doing both with the short edge up. I am finding it difficult to keep the long edge up in the right-side stance and cannot figure out from the pictures in the book how exactly to hold the sword. It seems to me very awkward to keep the long edge up here.

In the nebenhut I have the opposite problem. The right-side stance I find comfortable, with the long edge forward, but in the left-side cannot figure out how to properly align my hands so the short edge is forward. In addition, since the unterhau from this position moves you into ochs on the opposite side, wouldn't it make more sense to use the long edge from both sides and glide into ochs, i.e. torquing the blade before contact instead of having to turn the sword from the left-side stance after contact with the short edge? Or maybe I am missing something else?

I know that Mr. Tobler has more recent works, some of which may have more and/or newer information and insights, but unfortunately I do not have said tomes available at the moment and so am relying on his earlier work.

Thanks in advance for your help,
Alan
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2013 2:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alan,

For the Schranckhut,, stand with your left foot forward, but keep your sword up like you are in right Vom Tag. Then, rotate your wrists (left) so that your sword is now with the point aimed toward the ground, and the hilt held high. Your arms will be crossed as they would be in Ochs, with the left hand up higher than your right. Then, lower your sword down until it is in Schranckhut. You'll notice if you pay close attention that your long edge is indeed the one that is forward.

The even easier way to do this is to stand with your left foot forward. Hold your sword in right Ochs, with your arms crossed. Then, simply lower your arms forward until your sword sits in the Schranckhut position. Again, your long edge will be forward.

As for Nebenhut, if you cut a Zornhaw from the right and allow it to keep falling, you will finish in left Nebenhut with your short edge leading. I believe this is what the text refers to.
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Kalle Kylmnen





Joined: 18 Jul 2010

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2013 2:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I haven't read Toblers work or seen the DVD so I can't comment on that

Imho schranckhut can be considered as a starting/ending point of a krumphau. Though by default I'd try to end my krump with my hands in the level of my shoulders, but it's all relative. I hold my right schranckhut in thumbgrip without my hands crossed, so that the flat faces roughly forward. Actually I ideally let my grip slide a bit past just a "90 degree" thumbgrip, but that'sa very subtle nuance that often get's lost when sparring. Then again some argue that having the long edge point slightly forward is useful. I'm not qualified to give any advice on this subject though.
To get there one could just assume kron and turn the point to right low enough. I might be missing something, as I don't seem to have a problem with schranckhut. There's a ot of unintuitive/"weird" stuff in the german school, but with handling excercices and/for dynamic gripping with both hands should achieve fluidity in the grip to remove the uncomfrot. Atleast without gloves >.<

I figure out having the short upwards in right schranckhut would be more useful as a setup for what I understand as meyers take on krumphau, i.e. striking with the short edge, instead of using the long edge in thumbgrip.
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Alan Schiff
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Location: Las Vegas
Joined: 06 Oct 2008

Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies Craig and Kalle. If I'm reading your responses correctly, you both pretty much describe the same action, just starting from different guards. The ending position is in line with what I am already doing. Craig says that the end result aligns the long edge forward, which is what I have been doing, meaning that the short edge is to the rear and facing up, away from the ground.

I am now wondering if perhaps the von Danzig manuscript, and therefore Tobler, are describing this same orientation but using "up" and "forward" interchangeably, meaning the edge that is "up" should be orient to the front, and therefore towards the opponent. If that is the case, then I guess I am orienting the blade properly already.

Thanks again for the help,
Alan
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2013 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To the best of my knowledge, Fighting with the German Longsword is based upon Sigmund Ringeck's manuscript, and not Peter von Danzig.

The Rome version of von Danzig reads, on the Schranckhut:

Merck den krump haw magstu auch treiben aus der schranck hut von paiden seitt vnd in die hut schick dich also wenn dw mit dem zu vechten zw m kumpst So ste mit dem lincken fuess vor vnd halt dein swert mit dem ort neben deiner rechten seitten auff der erden das die lang schneid oben se vnd gib dich pl mit der lincken seitten haut er dir denn zw der plss

Notice "die lang schneid oben" which is "the long edge over/above".

The Dresden version of Ringeck reads, on the Schranckhut:

So stand mitt dem lincken fu fr v leg dz schwert mitt dem ort vff die erde zu diner rechte~ stten v dz die lang schnid oben s v v der lincken stten die kurcz schnid vnden / vnd der fu vor stee

Again, notice "die lang schnid oben...die kurcz schnid unden", or "the long edge over...the short edge under".

Transcription courtesy of Dierk Hagedorn and Wiktenauer.
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Alan Schiff
Industry Professional



Location: Las Vegas
Joined: 06 Oct 2008

Posts: 231

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar, 2013 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for that Craig, I think that will help me figure it out. As far as the book itself, Fighting with the German Longsword is based upon a number of manuscripts in the Liechtenauer tradition. For edge orientation in these two guards he specifically cites the von Danzig fechtbuch.

Thanks again,
Alan
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