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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Nov, 2004 7:52 pm    Post subject: Silver (?) gun?         Reply with quote

Maybe Antique Italian?

Thought you all might find this interesting. I'm trying to research this piece for the owner, so any feedback from the knowlegable would be greatly appreciated.

Heavy sucker and it feels like silver on the outside of this piece. The lock still works too...

I'll attach the two general photos I have. I have a few more detailed shots too if anyone is interested... And I can take more. In looking on-line I'm seeing a very broad range of valuations of this sort of thing. And I'm really not sure how to describe it.

On a related note, does anyone have a good reference for a good intro book to guns like these? I've also got a long flintlock as well as what I would call a wheellock handgun (very cool). I'm just trying to figure out age, origins, value, that kind of stuff.



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Keith Larman
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Nov, 2004 9:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does anyone think this might be a Victorian piece? The relief work on the stock is not particularly well done. (It could just be worn though) The inletting of the lock is pretty shoddy as well. (a replacement perhaps?)
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus


Last edited by Patrick Kelly on Tue 30 Nov, 2004 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gabriel Lebec
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 1:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Er... Would it be presumptuous of me to wonder if you perhaps meant to say "not particularly well done?" Not that I know much about firearms, but...
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 6:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

An Eastern piece, perhaps?
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the feedback so far. I wondered about Italian because I found a paper in the owner's late husband's notebook describing a purchase of an "ornate italian dueling pistol". But I don't know if this is the piece it was referencing or if he actually purchased the thing. I've poked around on the internet a bit but couldn't find anything that really helped me out much. The mechanism itself seems well made and sturdy, but the silver "case" seems fairly gaudy to me. Ornate but a bit soft for lack of a better term.

Wish I knew more about this stuff... Interesting to look at. The lady also has a wheellock pistol and flintlock rifle as I mentioned. The wheellock has a barrel that just seems too thin to be usable but the wheellock is in great shape. And the rifle seems more sturdy, but I wonder if this lady's husband knew what he was buying (bought back in the 30's). So they're certainly at least 80 years old, but I wonder if they were "put together" from parts, restored, or partially reproduction parts (from a century ago, of course, but still reproduction in parts). Interesting... After I get the kid dressed, fed and off to her morning preschool I'll post a few more shots of the silver piece.

Keith Larman
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Compare it with this one:

http://www.antiqueweaponstore.com/id124.htm

The design on the long barrel band is reminiscent of the band and decoration on yours. Also, both have that strange little hook at the top of the cock. Maybe we're both right and it's an Italian piece intended for the Eastern market.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 7:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Keith,

Is there any engraved script on the lockplate itself? That could help determine the origin of the works themselves.

The notch at the back of the trigger is curious. A lock at half cock while loading and for carry?

The Mideast and Mediterranean saw a lot of trade pieces in the 18th and 19th century. Some were more or less embellished.

Ballpark on value? I would speculate $500usd and up.

It would be unusual for a dueling piece to be a flintlock and made post 1825 + - . Europeans were pretty well up to pace with percussion arms.

Cheers, E.B. may be able to shed some light here.

GC

Edited to add a question about the action. Does the lock move towards half cock when you pull the trigger? It looks like there are more indents (teeth) behind the notch of the trigger.
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 8:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriel Lebec wrote:
Er... Would it be presumptuous of me to wonder if you perhaps meant to say "not particularly well done?" Not that I know much about firearms, but...


Thank you for being presumptuous, that's exactly what I meant!

Edit made.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 9:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't see any engraving anywhere.

And more photos that will hopefully answer a few other questions...



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Keith Larman
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Keith Larman
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

and a couple more.


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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 4:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm,

Looks like the barrel and lock got a serious wire brush or steel wool treatment at some point. Any light engraving is long gone. The whole piece might have gotten polished bright at some point. It's funny (sad) to see the silver verdegris and the cleaned ferrous.

Thanks for the larger view on the trigger and lock plate. I guess the trigger embelishment is just that.

I've an old one that is gaudy in a different way (carved barrel) but the name on the lock is readable and point's to France. This one looks maybe too fancy to be one of the common Mediterranean trade pieces but you never know. I agree that google isn't being much help here. The octagon to round barrel does keep coming up Italian.

I'm not sure but the real key might be the style of silver work art.

Cheers

GC

here's the thread of mine rom a couple of years ago

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s...=flintlock


Last edited by Glen A Cleeton on Tue 30 Nov, 2004 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David Quivey




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 4:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

looks like a bit of a repair job was done on the silver case in that last shot.
No makers marks on the lock, no name and no inspection marks on the barrel, but more than likely they are on the underside of the barrel instead. Have you taken the piece apart yet, Keith?
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Michael G. Myers




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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 5:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Sean Flynt. 19th century Turkish or Greek? I lean Turkish. I know European export was common, especially the locks, but this looks fairly representative of Ottoman flintlock pistol styling whatever the case. Keith does this pistol have the actual ramrod (these sported a non-functioning ramrod, with the actual rammer theoretically carried in the sash) with it or in any of the gentleman's possessions, that you know of?

Sorry I can't be of more help, but my interests lean percussion and cartridge. Perhaps, I can turn up something in a quick web search.



Mike

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Mark A





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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 6:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could you get a picture looking down the barrel?
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