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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

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Posts: 5,685

PostPosted: Mon 29 Nov, 2004 12:17 am    Post subject: Helmet from Valentine Armories.         Reply with quote

I was surfing around and happened to see this recent project on Valentine Armories website.



During the middle ages and renaissance armour was routinely covered with fabric as well as being painted. Sadly these features aren't replicated in the modern market as much as they should be. It's nice to see someone doing this type of work.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 6:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick, here is an Italian Sallet with a red velvet cover and gilt copper mounts, c. 1480.


Click for detailed version

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Ryan A. C.





Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 147

PostPosted: Thu 02 Dec, 2004 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sweet looking helm. I haven't been the the Valentine site in awhile. Looks like I need to go check it out.

Thanks for posting
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 7:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I dug out another example of this type of fabric covering on a helmet. This one is a Northern Italian (Milan) Salet (celata), circa 1470. It's steel with gilt copper and velvet. It is 9.5" high and weighs 8 pounds.



Click for detailed versions

The third photo is the same helmet with the fabric and metal mounts removed. This was done during a modern restoration process that necessitated the removal and cleaning of the fabric and mounts.

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Jonathon Janusz





Joined: 20 Nov 2003

Posts: 467

PostPosted: Fri 17 Dec, 2004 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How is the fabric attached to the helmet such that it could be removed without damaging it?
And when one says "middle ages to renaissance", how early could one go, at least ballparked to the nearest half century?

. . . i was just picturing a piece using some sage velvet i have laying around with some pierced silver-plated steel ornaments liberally engraved. . .
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Jeff Gentry




Location: Columbus ohio
Joined: 05 Sep 2004

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat 18 Dec, 2004 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey guy's

After seeing alot of pic's lately i realy want to get a gerrman salade and do a paint job on it myself, i like ot do my own work then i alway's get what i want and can change it whenever i feel like it, i do like the look of the painted or fabric covered helm's heck you could even do a fabric cover with a 3m spra\y on clue from lowe's, hmm velvet from a fabric store maybe something to consider.


Jeff

“Princes and Lords learn to survive with this art, in earnest and in play. But if you are fearful, then you should not learn to fence. Because a despondent heart will always be defeated, regardless of all skill.”
- Fechtmeister Sigmund Ringeck, 1440
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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know ten years is possibly a record for threadromancy Happy , but in keeping with myA's preference to keep topics all in one thread:

Does anyone have colour images of this sallet? I thought I'd seen one in one of the books in the library, but no luck so far ... Lots of other good ones in Armi e Armature Italiane in colour, but this is the one I'd like to see more of.

Thanks in advance if anyone can help!

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Patrick, here is an Italian Sallet with a red velvet cover and gilt copper mounts, c. 1480.


Click for detailed version

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Mark T




PostPosted: Thu 26 Jun, 2014 7:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm toying with the idea of making a reproduction of this sallet, and have a few questions:

What might have been the context for the fluer-de-lis being incorporated into the design - would this have been some 'official' designation in some way, akin to livery? Personal preference? Or something else?

Would anyone have been allowed to use the fluer-de-lis in this way, or would this have somehow been 'regulated'?

Do we know of any other sallets with such a recognizable embellishment? I know we have other examples of velvet-covered sallets, such as those above, as well as many other sallets that have small holes for attaching fabric covers - not only the well-known application of this to late-period 'black' sallets, but also more standard visored 'German' sallets in some collections: fabric covers were probably more common than we might have thought. We also have lots of examples of sallets with coloured covers, and all manner of decorative rivet designs and helm crests, in period artwork (such as the Pastrana Tapestry and other sources). However, what about badges or emblems such as on the sallet above?

Where this is all heading in a practical sense for the reproduction is this: I don't have a personal resonance with the fleur-de-lis, either as a symbol or a shape. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleur-de-lis) says that historically it was not only used in French areas, but also Italian, and even some German (Wiesbaden) and Swiss (Schilieren), as well as Florence and Tuscany. However, I'm guessing that the overwhelming association people have for the motif is French.

For the possible repro project, I have more affiliation with the double-headed eagle of Germany/the HRE, by way of family background. So ... it would be fairly straightforward to reproduce something similar to the fleur-de-lis version above: this design is available in a range of off-the-shelf fittings, or easily-modifiable forms, in hardware stores, antique furniture restoration suppliers, and so on. It would be doable, and would look fairly similar to the historical example. But I'd personally be more interested in owning (and wearing) one with a double-headed eagle theme. This raises some practical questions:

Would double-headed eagle motifs have possibly been used in this way? Would they have been 'allowed' to have been used?

What would be the possible modern response to seeing a helmet like this? I can imagine making one with fluer-de-lis as in the existing example, and we'd respond to it as 'historically plausible' as we've seen the above image, as we've in some ways be 'primed' for seeing it as such. But, if I made one with a double-headed eagle motif, while it would have similar construction and overall aesthetics, would it seem somehow 'wrong' to our modern eyes? (And would this even matter? Happy )

Hope that all makes sense ... I'm not 100% sure I'd do this project at this point. However, I do have a source for double-headed eagles, pyramid rivets, velvet, and a likely sallet candidate all lined up ... just wanting some initial feedback on the concept idea and historical context at this point.

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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