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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,835

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: 1800s antique spanish toledo swept hilt rapier colada del ci         Reply with quote

How not to buy on Ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1800s-ANTIQUE-SPANISH...824189500?

I have to figure it is just a bad joke but really? This auction caught my eye in its last hour and as the winner continued to escalate the bid price. It surely could be someone schilling but otherwise, how easy is it might be for a beginner with big eyes and no knowledge to pay big bucks for this item. It is a nice plainer older looking one but I think most reading will know the sword for what it is.

We see a good number of the standard Spanish treasures posted on various boards.

Cheers

GC
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,218

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Whittier, from where the sword was sold, is on the border of the Cherokee reservation in NC. The entire area is full of flea markets, many of which have sellers advertising stuff like this and guns as well, as things they definitely are not. It is not too surprising that this sword would show up there. It looks as if it sold for over $300 which would be incredible. I also love what the seller said about finding information on the sword online. Obviously he did not check with the myArmoury forum before pricing the item!

Thanks for sharing.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was tempted to remove this topic. Not because it's an eBay auction. It's perfectly fine because it's not an active auction, but...

This topic comes off as very elitist. There are much better ways to help and education newcomers who are collecting arms and armour than this method.

Instead, I'd rather somebody point it out and take the time to discuss the item, how it's been mislabeled, and provide a real estimate of its value.

Scoffing at uneducated buyers or complaining about unscrupulous sellers is not that helpful.

I am posting this in an attempt to steer us in a direction I'd like to see these types of things. Please take my post in the spirit it is intended. I have probably worded this poorly, too. Happy

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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,835

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree entirely Nathan and the intent was not to discourage newcomers. Hence my beginning with how not to shop on Ebay.

The subject of fakes and seller's ad copy have come up time and again. Perhaps some sort of tutorial to outline the classic Spanish standards. Where to stop though? There are inumerable examples of reproductions sold as old, or at least suggestive of being old.

The basics of looking before you leap comes to mind.

I was rather hoping someone would unwind with a history of the Cid swords instead of peeling the ad copy apart but that is also a factor in what not to look for when shopping the unknown. I'll admit I am entierly lazy in this regard by not offering full background on these swords. There have been some notable discussions about them in the past.

How about I end with how not to present an auction that has ended and what caveats might be shared.?

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,835

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One leads to another
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18875

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=14042

Completed Colada Del Cid Auctions On Ebay With Results

etc

GC
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Mike Janis




Location: Atlanta GA
Joined: 26 Feb 2007

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Darn, $310, I could be rich if I did not have any ethics. I have two of those swords that I bought in Germany in the 1981-84 period. I was a poor soldier, so I could/would not have paid over $100 each (if that much).
MikeJ
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Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
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Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,218

PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry Nathan...

You are quite correct of course. I have learned a lot by visiting this site and participating in the forum and reading the articles. It would be a shame to turn anyone off with our comments.

Lin

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lin Robinson wrote:
Sorry Nathan...

You are quite correct of course. I have learned a lot by visiting this site and participating in the forum and reading the articles. It would be a shame to turn anyone off with our comments.

Lin


Thank you for understanding. Still, I didn't express my concern well enough or in the right manner. For that, I apologize.

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Thor Andresen





Joined: 01 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good morning folks.

First post here. I have been trolling the forums for the last few months, and just recently joined to hopefuly get some good advise on putting togeather a 14th-15th C. kit. But I digress.

Looking at this sword would have fooled me. What are some of the things you guys noticed from looking at the pictures that are dead give aways of a fake? The only thing I really saw from close examination, was what looked like slag from a wire feed welder on the guard.

Thanks for any tips or pointers you guys can give!
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thor Andresen wrote:
Good morning folks.

First post here. I have been trolling the forums for the last few months, and just recently joined to hopefuly get some good advise on putting togeather a 14th-15th C. kit. But I digress.

Looking at this sword would have fooled me. What are some of the things you guys noticed from looking at the pictures that are dead give aways of a fake? The only thing I really saw from close examination, was what looked like slag from a wire feed welder on the guard.

Thanks for any tips or pointers you guys can give!


There aren't antique swords that are of this form. It is an extremely simplified and non-elegant take on antique hilts, but looks really almost nothing like the real things.

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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,835

PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 10:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Thor

Without even really looking at the auction item's qualities, a novice really needs to begin their searches by looking at the market as a whole. You will see modern reproductions of historic swords, you will see completely fantasy and movies swords and you will see swords that while maybe looking old, are somply made to look like old swords.

The completed auction link I posted above will show a few just like the one that sold recently. Those completed auctions all had the name Colada in the quick search I did but that will not show all that are on Ebay of this more or less exact sword of El Cid that have circulated at least back to the 1960s, if not before (post WWII). If any that had been looking at the auction and stopped for a minute to look fo Colada swords, they would have seen them still being made and in a variety of price, as well as decoration. This should be a large flag to pursue the type further.

This is also true of the many, many military type swords and it is easy for a beginner to look at a low price for something that may look old but is actually quite new. Here are two articles right ioon this site that go into new being made old.
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_antique.html
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_bench_ws_cfo.html

The first Colda del Cid example I saw and handled was immediately familiar to me from old magazine ads and even though a plainer sword (as was the auction listed) I knew what I was seeing. The owner replied to my shaking my head saying that yes, he knew there were many out there but his was real and old. What can anyone do when someone has made up their mind? This was decades before I was looking at the sword market or even knew much about swords.

Even two decades ago, there were no sites such as this and search engines will bring up such sites quickly, if one is really looking to learn about what is appealing to spend money on. Many starting out may be more interested in seeing a bargain, or be going on a hunch without taking a few steps further to look at what is out there. I pondered a first sword purchase for a couple of years before even putting down dollar one. I narrowed that to just two examples from two sources and did go for the cheaper sword, knowing an extra hundred dollars would probably be worth it.

Antiques should be an easier decision if venturing into that market but only if one spends a bit of time watching for the pitfalls such as the El Cid swords, the Carlos V swords, the Excaliburs and Robin Hoods. With today's market and vast amount of resources, it will always be the "gimme" purchases that may haunt a beginner.

Check out the links at the head of this page and read everything there, plough through all the galleries. It will be a large part of just this site aside from the discussion area. Then specialize or generalize in further interest.

In four words of summation and advice to any beginner or one unfamiliar with any item;

Take it slow, learn

Cheers

GC
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