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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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Posts: 257

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 9:50 am    Post subject: 13th century great swords have ever gotten this huge?!         Reply with quote

Hello all! I had recently finished watching the movie, Ironclad, and have fallen in love with the great sword used in the film! Razz

I have been trying to find who had made the sword, as well as try to find any documentation that the swords were to have gotten THAT big during the 13th century.

I know that swords had gotten larger, due to trying to deliver more force against opponents wearing mail and the sword would have had a fuller on the blade to fit within the time period, rather then the diamond blade. The only thing that I have come across that I have been able to document and that is close is the Albion Duke.

Thanks in advance! Big Grin
-Reece



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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

XIIa, 43" long blade, 1250-1350: http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxii13.jpg
XIIIa, 39.5" long blade, 1300-1350: http://www.myArmoury.com/view.html?features/pic_spotxiii05.jpg

I have no pictures on my computer, by I found many XIIIa swords with blades around 40" or 41" long in my books, most dated to about 1300.


Last edited by Luka Borscak on Wed 05 Dec, 2012 12:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Johan K





Joined: 15 Oct 2010

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Off topic, but... what movie are you referring to?
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Bryan Heff




Location: Philadelphia
Joined: 04 Mar 2012
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 358

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan K wrote:
Off topic, but... what movie are you referring to?


Ironclad

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1233301/
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Joel Chesser




Location: Oklahoma
Joined: 23 Oct 2003

Posts: 714

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Using Albion as point of size comparison, the first XIIa that Luka posted has a blade that is 2.5" longer than Albion's Maximilian!

Here is a picture from Albions FB page showing Peter and Harlan Hastings holding the Maximilian blade.



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..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

- Luke 22:36
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Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would say that the diamond cross-section of the sword shown in the link is not appropriate for the 13th. c.

In addition. hand-and-a-half swords are more typical of the late 13th. and into the 14th. C. In the 13th., especially in the first half of the century, they would be more rare.
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

Posts: 3,454

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 8:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fairly off topic but it sure appears the middle ages were a very muddy time according to Hollywood. I understand the big, giant sword fetish they have because...well...its impressive on screen. What is it with all the mud though?
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-John F. Kennedy
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 669

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 9:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joe Fults wrote:
Fairly off topic but it sure appears the middle ages were a very muddy time according to Hollywood. I understand the big, giant sword fetish they have because...well...its impressive on screen. What is it with all the mud though?


When I camp at Pennsic and only have two or three tunics to last me two weeks during humid, rainy summertime... Well, mud and sweat is a familiar sight. People out and about were probably very dirty by modern, urban standards. The opportunity to wash the clothing on one's back doesn't come often while keeping busy. If Hollywood focuses on frontier warfare, traveling through dark, dank forests and hills and generally goes for the gruff, "I don't care what anyone thinks of me" warrior types then this is a non-issue. In any case, look at how characters (especially nobility) could wash up in films like Braveheart, Kingdom of Heaven and A Knight's Tale. Quite clean! The contrast is there to provide a distinction among character types, and I think they actually do it pretty well.

But back on topic, methinks...

-Gregory
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Michael R. Mann




Location: Germany
Joined: 26 Jun 2012

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm not really sure but the sword on the picture from the movie could be a sword from the Type XVIIIc. This type of swords was used between 1450 and 1520.
See more here: http://freywild.ch/vortrag/
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Ellen Bergwerf





Joined: 04 Dec 2012

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 3:22 am    Post subject: 13th century sword         Reply with quote

You’re probably right. It has all shapes of a Oakeshott type XVIIIC or B. The blade contains a diamond shape and that was also not used during the 13th century.
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Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 5:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One thing to keep in mind is that you cannot really apply a typology for medieval swords to classify modern swords.

-Unless of course the modern sword is made closely after the example of one or several old swords. Then the modern sword complies to a typology only to the extent that it is faithful to its ancient counterparts.

A modern film prop sword may very superficially look like a type XVIa, an XVIIIc or b, but it is far from anything like the original swords.

It is common to see modern swords being classified according to Oakeshotts typology. I think this is a mistake.
Oakeshott never meant his typology to be a design concept or a system that fully defined historical swords.
You can make a sword today that follows the criteria of a typology, but may still be very far from what the historical sword of the type are like. There are many elements of medieval swords that are critical to their function, form and aesthetic character that are not even mentioned in typologies.

Swords made as props for films are very rarely designed with any real interest in historical authenticity. They are only made to tell a story in an effective way. If the story is about facing overwhelming odds, suffering pain and fighting inner doubts while rolling around in mud, a historical sword is not really part of the deal.
;-)

In the late 13th century there was a development of bigger forms of swords. This trend had started earlier in the century, but they did not get this big until the later half, as I understand it.
Such big swords tend to be of type XIIa or type XIII.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,831

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I can't quickly find the maker of the movie sword but the key armourer was Richard Hooper

Cheers

GC
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Michael R. Mann




Location: Germany
Joined: 26 Jun 2012

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 12:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The complete movie is in youtube available.

Here are 2 screenshots of this sword:



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Michael R. Mann




Location: Germany
Joined: 26 Jun 2012

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

BTW.: What I have to do to include in a posting a picture direct as viewable?
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Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It would be a mistake to assume anything in a movie is historically accurate. If the movie was full of brown clothing like in that photo, then that wasn't historically accurate either.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,831

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael R. Mann wrote:
BTW.: What I have to do to include in a posting a picture direct as viewable?


img /img tags around an image url
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Benjamin Floyd II





Joined: 13 Dec 2008

Posts: 82

PostPosted: Thu 20 Dec, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a video of cutting with the Maximilian. We aren't great at it yet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_e...CPHVW0ajdo

Krieg School of Historical Swordsmanship
A HEMA Alliance Affliate
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