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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Sat 01 Dec, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: A question about the Albion Crecy         Reply with quote

I'm new to swords, I'm 30 years old and only about a month ago did I take a genuine interest in them. I don't know why or how, but something clicked and I all of a sudden became keenly interested in swords, particularly from medieval Europe.

Anyway, I did some research and ordered an Albion Crecy about 2 weeks ago but then I came across some info that has possibly made me reconsider. It seems to me that the Crecy has a somewhat short grip. I am not a particularly big guy but I do have moderately large hands and I have been studying some German longsword techniques on youtube. I currently live in Odessa texas, there are no sword handling schools here.

Is this sword appropriate for this type of martial art and do you think the grip will be a problem for me?

I apologize if I sound like I am completely ignorant of swords, I mostly am, I'm totally new to this.
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Paul B.G




Location: Victoria, Australia
Joined: 01 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Christopher, Iím not sure about its specific application for use in training in German Longsword techniques ( no idea really Wink ) but if your concerned about the length of the grip regarding fitting both your hands on it, Iím 6ft.3 and 95kg and have I think normal sized hands, I can fit both my hands on the grip just, but its comfortable, the grip / leathered area of my Crecy is 16.7cm.

If youíre really concerned about grip lengths, there are 2 new swords on the way with similar blade lengths to the Crecy but with longer grips, The Principe & The Alexandria. Iím seriously considering purchasing the Principe once the final stats and photos are available Wink Iíve also heard good things about the Albion Earl, pictured below, its grip length is about 19.8cm.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19975

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19976

This is just a pic I put together from photos from the Albion site to help me decide on upcoming purchases Wink not to any scale, just a cut & paste job.

A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person

O====[::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

Thoí much is taken, much abides; and thoí
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

óAlfred Lord Tennyson, Ulysses


Last edited by Paul B.G on Sun 02 Dec, 2012 12:47 am; edited 3 times in total
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Welcome, Christopher! You're in the right place. I can't say I've handled the Crecy in person, but I know we've got a review of the sword up here on the site. Check it out if you haven't.

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_alb_crecy.html

Chad mentions the grip issue:

"The grip is just long enough for me to fit both hands on it. The pommel is also of a decent size and shape to be gripped with the off-hand. Cuts were no less effective from either grip. The shorter guard didn't interfere with any moves."

Generally, to properly handle a longsword with two hands, you'd want the grip to be at least 4/5 the length of your combined palm width. A bit of the lower hand should be expected to rest on the pommel for added control and stability. I have rather small hands, and my palms put together are just about 7", while the Crecy's grip is stated as being 6 5/8 inches in length. I could survive with a bit less grip, in fact, and folks with larger hands might beg for a hair more...

I know it wouldn't be hard to mock up the length of the handle, and the shape/size of the hilt pommel with some typical household stuffs. This might give you a good idea. Better yet, I'm sure there are members in your area with the sword who would be willing to let you give it a whirl... Never hurts to try it out first (unless someone gets stabbed, I suppose).

In any case, welcome again to myArmoury! The making and use of bladed weapons is an ancient human exercise steeped in history and passion. Expect to spend a lot, learn even more, and have an excellent time of it all the while.

-Gregory
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Christopher Denby




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 12 Feb 2012

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Christopher,

When fighting/learning German longsword your left hand is a loose grip around the pommel. With your hands in the right place I wouldn't think you would have trouble with the grip on the Crecy.

Perhaps in more technical moves where you're hooking through the opponents hands with your grip or landing binds in half sword you may find the grip lacking.

I personally prefer the pear shaped pommels such as the Earl has for longsword as the disc pommels (such as the Crecy) doesn't move quite as freely in your hand.

For learning purposes, the Liechtenauer would have been a more appropriate purchase Happy

Good luck and enjoy!
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Quinn W.




Location: Bellingham, WA
Joined: 02 May 2009

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm a Crecy owner with average hands and the grip feels right about where it should be. I have never noticed an interference during practice. I would not hesitate to make the purchase for that reason alone if it speaks to you in other ways. However, if you do want some extra wiggle room, there are options out there by Albion with longer grips.
Granted, the Crect doesn't give you any extra space beyond what you need unless you want to grab onto the pommel, but in my opinion that snug fit makes it feel more secure in my hand, as though the pommel and the guard are "locking" my hands in (though not squishing them together by any means.)

"Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth"
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher,

I'm a Crecy owner and I love the sword. It's a terrific weapon, and as others have stated, you should be gripping near the cross with your strong hand, and gripping the pommel with your other. Holding the sword in this manner should give you plenty of room.

However, I have a friend, who, like yourself, prefers a longer grip. He just purchased a Brescia Spadona, which is a cross between a Type XVIa blade (like the Crecy) and a Type XVIIIa blade. The extra grip length is perfect for someone who prefers a longer grip. Additionally, the Brescia has one of the most amazingly light and agile blades I have ever handled, making it a joy to practice with. So, if you want a Type XVIa blade with a longer grip, the Brescia is probably your best choice.
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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 8:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really appreciate the feedback guys, all of you have given me some good information. I've decided to keep my order of the crecy, I think it will work out just fine.

Most people seem give this sword heavy praise and if I happen to prefer a long grip when I do receive it, I'll just get another one.

I feel like a kid again, barely able to contain myself while waiting for that one toy to come. Big Grin
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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
Christopher,

I'm a Crecy owner and I love the sword. It's a terrific weapon, and as others have stated, you should be gripping near the cross with your strong hand, and gripping the pommel with your other. Holding the sword in this manner should give you plenty of room.

However, I have a friend, who, like yourself, prefers a longer grip. He just purchased a Brescia Spadona, which is a cross between a Type XVIa blade (like the Crecy) and a Type XVIIIa blade. The extra grip length is perfect for someone who prefers a longer grip. Additionally, the Brescia has one of the most amazingly light and agile blades I have ever handled, making it a joy to practice with. So, if you want a Type XVIa blade with a longer grip, the Brescia is probably your best choice.


I think I'll probably get the Brescia Spadona next although it will be awhile, it isn't cheap.
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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
Joined: 02 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you're learning and you really want to experience German longsword find a way to get a Munich at some point. However, right now you're going to love the Crecy because it will be what you expect a sword to be now, and because its a great sword. As you learn German and play German and slowly adjust your expectations you're going to grow into an Earl, Regent, Munich, Talhoffer or some such because your expectations of what the sword should be and what it should do will be different than they are now. Unfortunately there's no fast way to it. You play and you learn and as you gain context and experience you appreciate things you never noticed before. I eventually came to the Ringeck and it was an instant bingo for me (and that perfect tool moment will be a bit different for everyone) but I'd love to get a Munich back in my collection.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
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Last edited by Joe Fults on Sun 02 Dec, 2012 8:48 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Tom King




Location: florida
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Denby wrote:
When fighting/learning German longsword your left hand is a loose grip around the pommel. With your hands in the right place I wouldn't think you would have trouble with the grip on the Crecy.


Talhoffer and a few other masters put forward to this grip the hilt exclusively. gripping with the pommel encourages strikes from the wrist, which makes a blow faster but much less powerful. It also prevents you from using the pommel and rear of the sword in binding moves.
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm with Joe on this one. I have a Fiore, because I prefer a disk to a scent stopper pommel shape. But if you have the means to get a Munich, which I currently do not, then I would get one. I have an AT1592 (seen here http://www.myArmoury.com/review_at1592.html )

And I had a Durer style hilt (the style that the Munich has) put on it. For circular strikes that hilt style and size is incredible.

You can pick up wasters for less than a hundred bucks, to try out different sized weapons, granted, a wooden waster will never feel like a steel weapon, but it will give you an idea of the handling.

You get a Purpleheart Armory Greatsword Waster and cut the blade down to match the Munich, than you'd have something to approximate the size without spending a bunch of money. Just a thought.

But hey, that Crecy is a fine weapon, it's probably one of the best introductions to medival blades you could have picked. An excellent sword that has a powerful cut, but doesn't neglect the thrust either. Welcome to a hobby that never ends!

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Christopher Denby




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 12 Feb 2012

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sun 02 Dec, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom King wrote:
Christopher Denby wrote:
When fighting/learning German longsword your left hand is a loose grip around the pommel. With your hands in the right place I wouldn't think you would have trouble with the grip on the Crecy.


Talhoffer and a few other masters put forward to this grip the hilt exclusively. gripping with the pommel encourages strikes from the wrist, which makes a blow faster but much less powerful. It also prevents you from using the pommel and rear of the sword in binding moves.


I guess it's down to situation and preference. If your binding and striking with the pommel your going to be half swording so it really doesn't matter. Happy
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher B Lellis wrote:
I really appreciate the feedback guys, all of you have given me some good information. I've decided to keep my order of the crecy, I think it will work out just fine.

Most people seem give this sword heavy praise and if I happen to prefer a long grip when I do receive it, I'll just get another one.

I feel like a kid again, barely able to contain myself while waiting for that one toy to come. Big Grin


A fine sword choice but just keep in mind that it's a sharp and a " REAL SHARP " sword, so for training purposes you have to stay alert to the dangers of those sharp edges in solo training.

Don't confuse this for a paired training tool, and if using it for solo training make sure of your surroundings and that nobody gets close to you without your'e being aware of their presence: Make sure to have a lot of open people-free space around you when training or doing test cutting.

Getting an Albion Liechtenauer for paired training or just safe solo training would be a good idea as well as joining an organized group, if you can find one close to home.

Look into this site for training books and DVDs:
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/

Having a real sword really helps in judging the feel of training swords simulating a real sword and the Crecy as well as the other Albions are all designed to match as much as possible the feel of a real sword. ( Note that different swords can feel very different and vary in handling qualities depending on their intended use and variations in fighting styles at different periods ..... Oh, and welcome to the site and the love of swords ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 4:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Christopher B Lellis wrote:
I really appreciate the feedback guys, all of you have given me some good information. I've decided to keep my order of the crecy, I think it will work out just fine.

Most people seem give this sword heavy praise and if I happen to prefer a long grip when I do receive it, I'll just get another one.

I feel like a kid again, barely able to contain myself while waiting for that one toy to come. Big Grin


A fine sword choice but just keep in mind that it's a sharp and a " REAL SHARP " sword, so for training purposes you have to stay alert to the dangers of those sharp edges in solo training.

Don't confuse this for a paired training tool, and if using it for solo training make sure of your surroundings and that nobody gets close to you without your'e being aware of their presence: Make sure to have a lot of open people-free space around you when training or doing test cutting.

Getting an Albion Liechtenauer for paired training or just safe solo training would be a good idea as well as joining an organized group, if you can find one close to home.

Look into this site for training books and DVDs:
http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/

Having a real sword really helps in judging the feel of training swords simulating a real sword and the Crecy as well as the other Albions are all designed to match as much as possible the feel of a real sword. ( Note that different swords can feel very different and vary in handling qualities depending on their intended use and variations in fighting styles at different periods ..... Oh, and welcome to the site and the love of swords ).



Good advice, I appreciate the tips. I won't be swinging this around irresponsibly like a fool who doesn't know what he's got.
I have one of those cold steal long sword trainers and have been sparring with a relative to get a feel for what sword play is like. I have used and been around firearms for most of my life and will apply the same safety vigilance I have with them to the sword.

I also plan on joining ARMA, there is a class that starts this Wednesday and I will show up for it.
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Scott Hanson




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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll also jump on the bandwagon for "don't grip the pommel". Specifically, Doebringer says that the sword is a scale, and gripping the pommel will reduce the power of your strikes. George Turner has an article on the ARMA site that mathematically demonstrates that this is true.

That's not to say "never grip the pommel". I think there are circumstances where you grip the pommel, and others where you don't.

Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another"

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Joe Fults




Location: Midwest
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting...long time since I've been at all active in WMA and way back then thought on pommel gripping seemed to be pretty fair. Most folks seemed to do it most of the time. Depending on pommel type I found that it helped me with edge alignment; significantly. Perhaps its like so many things and to do or not to do depends.
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Jimi Edmonds




Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec, 2012 10:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, upon reading of this thread, to Poster number one, be sure to learn art before you swing a sharp about, as it is a loaded weapon and it will cut deeply, that is not to say don't get one though.

When I started learning longsword, it was from youtube and what I read online, then I found I really wanted to learn more, so I aquired a waster and found a copy of Christian H Toblers "Fighting with the German longsword", and went from there with lots of practice in front of the mirror and windows (using the reflection) plus lots of reading and research, more practice and watching clips.

At least you have a local group you can join that will help alot!

And with gripping the pommel? I tend to grip the base of the grip and pommel, but then depending on what I'm doing it will change, mostly if I am in a high vom tag I'll grip between the cross and pommel...
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 12:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hanson wrote:
Specifically, Doebringer says that the sword is a scale, and gripping the pommel will reduce the power of your strikes. George Turner has an article on the ARMA site that mathematically demonstrates that this is true.

That article demonstrates nothing of the sort... The position of the hands is not taken into account there.

What actually happens, in my opinion, is that having the hands closer together forces you to swing the sword instead of levering it into the target, which can help reach higher rotation speed. This is also used in some stick arts that like to generate big rotations. It works whether you have a big pommel or not.

Regards,

--
Vincent
Ensis Sub Caelo
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a part of me that wants to argue and disagree with the hands gripping the pommel, especially when it comes to gripping a shorter sword like my Castellan. I do recall someone saying that Dobringer's comment was incorrect before. However, I have noticed that in quite a few medieval depictions of axe use, the hand placement is very close together, and the same is true for clubs. Additionally, I have found from experience that striking in a club with the hands close together generates a lot of power, because the club can more freely rotate in an arc. I suppose the same would hold true for a sword.
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Christopher Denby




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 12 Feb 2012

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I did some sparring the other day and noticed my hand naturally fell into 50/50 pommel/grip position. Funny what you don't notice when it becomes second nature. Interdasting...
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