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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Making a DelTin Thoughter         Reply with quote

The title says it all.
A friend of mine owns this sword http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...alf+Sword, and he wants to make it "battle ready".
He arleady sparred with it and the results were disastrous. The edges were badly damaged and now the sword isn't that beautiful anymore. Grinding the edges isn't enought because the dentrs are so profound they are still there.
I own a gas forge that reaches 1200C and I'm training to becoma a blacksmith, so my friend asked me to"save his sword". He doesen't want to purchase another sword, not untlill everithing to save it hasn't been done.
So he wants me to do tree things: harden the blade, and/or shorten the blade so it cannont snap off easily, and/or making the edges more thick firging them on hot.
Any advice?

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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Saving the sword may turn out to be rather difficult. I'd suggest making a new blade from scratch in a steel alloy you know what it is and that it can take a proper temper and use the original fittings. That'll keep with the look and spirit of the original but with a good blade.
The way I'd do it was get a Tinker line bastard sword bare blade from KOA and put the fittings from this one on it. Will look very similar but be sharp and HRC around 50 in the cutting edge. That would be the easy way. Easy isn't always the right way to go though.


But really, if you're thinking of re-working the blade, you should ask Owen Bush for advice, he's a great bladesmith and may have some ideas on this. I hardly claim to be a swordsmith of any sort but he is, maybe there is a way to save it I don't know about.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Anders Backlund




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wait, aren't Del Tin swords already designed for reenactment swordplay? "Well-tempered chrome-vanadium steel, 50 HRC"?

It sounds like your friend either got one with faulty heat treatment (in which case he should ask for a new one or a refund) or gravely misused it.

The sword is an ode to the strife of mankind.

"This doesn't look easy... but I bet it is!"
-Homer Simpson.
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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The fact it that deltin's blade are too thin. He can made them 1mm thicker but my friend's sword isn't one of them. DelTin are good agains other DelTins, but for what I understood he uset it a couple of time agains a generic basher (if I remember well the other sword was thicker, hence all the "injuries")
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Tim Harris
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Location: Melbourne, Australia
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto,

I'd be very cautious about reworking a blade that's already been heat-treated. Based solely on my own experience, I think it adds a level of unpredictability. I have had a couple of my own blades professionally re-treated after showing signs of being too soft: one blade snapped while being re-hilted, and another one took a sideways (sabre) curve.
In short, you may get a result you won't like.

As for forging the blade thicker, again, it can be done, but there is so much potential work involved that I'd regard it as less effort to forge a new blade.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 28 Nov, 2012 11:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Equally importantly to "saving" your friend's sword is making sure that the same thing doesn't happen again. If the edges of your friend's sword are getting badly chewed up from sparring, it means that his edges are striking his opponent's sword edge. This means that he is either trying to block with his edge, or that, when someone else strikes at him, he suddenly changes the line of his sword's movement to try to cover and protect himself. Either way, he will cause unnecessary damage to his edges and ruin his sword quickly. He needs to practice striking and displacing in such a way that he is impacting primarly against the flat of his partner's sword, instead of edge to edge. Remind him that if he needs to cover himself, it should be with a strike or thrust to displace his opponent's weapon, rather than changing the line of his cut and moving his sword in front of him to protect against the blow.
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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Nov, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies dudes.
Yes, I have to admit that my fiend was a little bit foolish. That's the whole story.
He is my former Yoseikan Budo sensei, with wich I practiced since I was 10 untill I was 16. Then I stopped to attend the course because I losto interest in eastern martial arts, so I quitted. Three years later I discovered that my sensei was interested in WMA and sword sparring, so I contacted him again and we returned to see each other. He was already in a "reenactment" group (very very very bad dressed and managed), in wich he made some stage combat edge-to-edge. I later discovered that he purchased a DelTin and that he arleady destroyed it, I i could I'd stopped him to proceed with the purchased and convinced him to buy a mor suitable sword.
He is a very good warrior, he is a little bit overweight but he manages to fence wery well and is capable of a lot of moves and stances. The only "problem" so is that he wants to make stage combat, for show, so he opened a gym to train other for stage combat. The school centers on the fols duellatorum, as we do fondamentals following Fiore's moves, but we never go to short distance as the fiht wold be over in just two moves. I do not agree too much with the use we make of medieval swordmanship, but for me it's the only way to learn it as there are not other schools in my area.
So after you fell asleep twice reading this post now you know why the sword is damaged and why i have to repair it =).

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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Nov, 2012 3:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you have to fight like that I suggest getting some Albion training swords. Probably the most durable around except for custom work.

Maybe you can order some bare training blades from Albion to move ghe fittings over to.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Thu 29 Nov, 2012 3:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto,

Of course there's another way for you to learn. Learn on your own. Yes, it helps a lot to have a teacher, but as long as you're willing to be really critical of yourself and the way you're performing the actions, you can come a long way. Watch videos of other groups- critically evaluate what they do well, and what they do poorly. Spend a lot of time with Fiore. Read his manuscript over and over again, pondering how to perform each action. Look at the pictures carefully. Notice details like foot placement. Whenever you come up with an interpretation, always ask yourself "In a brutal life or death fight, would this really work? If I had a maniac attacking me viciously with a weapon (and not following the "rules"), could I protect myself?"

It is better that you struggle to achieve Fiore's true art on your own then get caught up practicing a false and misleading version because that is how others are content to practice. Along the way, you will find others who will want to join you. Practice out in public- you never know who might see you and want to learn.
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Bruno Giordan





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PostPosted: Fri 30 Nov, 2012 12:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Augusto,

There is no way to "rework" a blade in a forge. You should make a new one from a spring steel of known alloy, and have it heat treated properly in a professional facility.

For a beginning blacksmith, or better, swordsmith, the generals consensus is that starting with a sword is the wrongest way to initiate this trade. You should start with simple knives in order to learn how to manipulate steel.

The idea of acquiring a bare blade and then fitting it with your friend's cross and pommel is probably the best option you have.

Pleas keep in mind that grinding an already heat treated blade to make it match with already existing fittings must be made with frequent cooling of the blade itself, in order to avoid ruining its temper.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Nov, 2012 12:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Even the most durable sword will be destroyed when it is not used like a sword. There is no way to avoid this.

Stage fighting focus on visually dramatic showmanship, rather than effective fighting.
In entertainment it is not reality or authenticity that counts, it is what *looks* real. It is about a dramatic representation of reality, rather than reality itself. Props can actually be *too* authentic. I learned this when I was involved in designing movie swords for the Arn movie. Initially there were problems, since the stunt men thought our swords were too realistic. They were not used to that. We worked around this, but it was a very useful lesson.
This means you *cannot* hope to use authentic swords in show fighting. Nor can you use regular swords that have simply been blunted.
As soon as the focus shifts from a study of a martial use of the sword, to sport or entertainment, the tool you use must also change. You need tools that are specifically designed for the task. They need to be of another weight, balance than real weapons. They simply have to be designed from the ground up in a fundamentally different way.

One way to solve this is to make them overbuilt to take any bashing you could possibly subject them to. Such "swords" will be much heavier than a real sword would be and really take some effort to swing around. This makes the fight go slower and every move be exaggerated. In stage fighting this may actually be a good thing and it is a solution you often see. I do not think it is a very elegant elegant solution however.

I would recommend you go the other direction and instead use very light swords made from aluminum but use them in a way so that they look really dangerous. You can use light sparring swords with great control and make the most out of the drama of the fight.
You could learn to make durable prop swords from air craft aluminum. With a little metal craft skill, you can cut and grind these to shape, no heat treat involved and you get a "weapon" that will weigh half the weight of a real sword of the same size. They will also ring in a nice way when you bash them together.
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