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Neil T
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Nov, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Windlass Steelcrafts, what's the real skinny?         Reply with quote

Hello all. Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere already; I couldn't find it if it has.

I notice a lot of reviews on various individual Windlass swords but what I want to know is are they any good on the whole? I've heard a lot of bad things about the quality of their gear over here in the UK, things like lack of quality control, easily broken blades etc. Have I simply met a lot of biased people are are they really not much cop. I use Hanwei as a benchmark for affordability and durability, how do they compare?

Thanks for any advice!

Neil aka Sigwulf

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Scott Wolfertz




Location: Wycombe, PA
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Nov, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I ordered their Mastercraft Templar sword, when it comes in I'll let you know.
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J. Hargis




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PostPosted: Sun 18 Nov, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Neil.

I have their 15th Century Longsword. IMO, reviewed correctly here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_ws_15cls.html
Be sure to check out the other Windlass reviews at myArmoury.
http://www.myArmoury.com/reviews.html

I also have two of their daggers, more substance, but a bit factory looking out of the box. I've heard that there are some decent pieces from Windlass, but it seems to be the luck of the draw. In comparison, I have two Hanwei / Tinker swords which I had refinished and the grips re-wrapped and I find them to be quite nice for the money spent. In general though, I try to avoid Windlass.

Jon

A poorly maintained weapon is likely to belong to an unsafe and careless fighter.
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Jack Savante





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 2:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Don't believe all bad press about Windlass, they make some excellent swords.

I own their hungarian sabre and it is a beautiful sword, solidly built.

With a minimum of DIY you can give Windlass swords the extra touch they need to be truly exceptional - in the space of a few hours.

For instance, grab a green scotch brite pad, and then then a grey one if you can get your hands on one and run it carefully up and down the length of the sword (be careful of your fingers and use spring clamps to clamp it to a workbench). Be sure to use mineral (baby oil) while resurfacing with the scotch brites and wipe clean when moving from green to grey pads. This will give the sword the satin / matte finish that Albion have pioneered, which will make the sword look a cut above.

Take the plastic grip covering off with a knife and you will find that windlass swords have well made hardwood handles. Sand the handle and then apply linseed oil. Either that or do a seamless leather grip by binding the grip with string and then applying a wet piece of skived leather, and bonding it with Epoxy. Then wrap tightly with string. Allow to cure for 48 hours then remove top layer of string.

Remove black paint from scabbard and then apply an alcohol ink in your desired colour.

Lo and behold your sword looks magnificent!

In the case of my hungarian sabre the blade is clearly forged, and holds a wickedly sharp edge. No one else is making a sword anything like a Byzantine paramerion http://www.angelfire.com/empire/egfroth/Paramerion2.jpg compare http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ame=Hung.. - I am delighted with it.
It is peened neatly, all the fittings are rock solid and it performs beautifully.

People frequently whinge about the fact Windlass swords aren't shipped sharp, but honestly it doesn't take an expert swordsmith to apply a good edge to them, and if you buy them from Kult of Athena they do a great job of putting a linished edge on the sword for a small fee.

What you have to remember is that there is alot of snobbery in the sword world from the talking heads. Some of them would have you believe that only Albion are mass producing decent swords, but that is far from the truth. Windlass make good swords, and with a few tweaks they can be beautified to Albion standard.
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T. Arndt




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 5:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack Savante wrote:
...Windlass make good swords, and with a few tweaks they can be beautified to Albion standard.

LOL. Eek!
Jack is taking his sentiment a little too far here...
While windlass may be getting better, I own a windlass and never plan on getting another, if that says anything-

If windlass made a federschwert, without buying one and pushing it to the breaking point first, I would not be willing to fence someone using it, for my safety.

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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 5:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I can only comment on their ancient-era items, and have to say that their historical accuracy is pretty low. For example, they've come out with a number of "Greek" and "Roman" daggers which were basically complete fantasy. For all I know they were masterfully crafted of the finest materials, but they bore no relation to anything from history, and that's the first consideration for a reenactor like myself. They also pioneered the "Roman Trooper" helmet which has been copied by every workshop in Asia and is the bane of the Roman reenacting community world-wide! It wouldn't be so bad if they showed any inclination to make their products a little more historical in appearance, but my offer of free advice (a number of years ago) was turned down. Could have saved them a ton of money, oh well! So any decent Greek or Roman reenactor learns very quickly, "Don't buy Windlass!"

Matthew
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William Swiger




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have owned around 30-40 Windlass swords over the years and have a few still in my collection. Their swords are hit or miss but the ones they get right are good buys for the money. Are you getting an Albion? - No. Not paying Albion prices for them either. (I like Albions and have over 20 of their swords).

For the most part, I am just guessing Windlass will make a sword from photographs and concept pictures without taking into account proper blade properties, harmonics and real historical accuracy. That is why they seem to be hit or miss. I think sometimes they stumble into making a decent sword. As an example, I have sold and then later purchased the same sword and the blades are completely different. The Baron Sword I purchased a few years ago had a very flexible blade and the recent one I purchased has a very stiff blade.

Look around the sword forums to see what are their better swords. I have had decent luck with some of their viking swords and a few other models.

The models they get right are great entry level swords. I think a lot of folks started into the hobby with a few Windlass swords. If the sword bug hits you, the natural progression is to move up in price as finances allow.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack Savante wrote:

What you have to remember is that there is alot of snobbery in the sword world from the talking heads. Some of them would have you believe that only Albion are mass producing decent swords, but that is far from the truth. Windlass make good swords, and with a few tweaks they can be beautified to Albion standard.


While Scotchbrite and a better grip wrap can improve the sword's looks and give a WIndlass a surface look that approximates Albion's, Windlass still misses the mark and isn't in the same league as Albion or others, regardless of how they've been "beautified." Windlass usually doesn't get the subtleties of shape down that give a truly historic look. Their blades are often too thin and/or have incorrect cross-sections (like grinding a fuller into a diamond section blade, leaving the tip section thicker than the fullered section). Hilt construction can be loose.

That's not to say they're all bad, though. Some Windlass models are okay (see our Reviews section), and some are very good buys for the money. Unfortunately, their current product line is trending less and less historical all the time and I'm not hopeful for the future. They seem to be more interested in movie and other pop culture tie-ins than in real historical pieces right now. There's probably more money there than in historical pieces, so it's probably not a bad business decision.

The snobbery comment is offensive. Your post also shows that you don't yet appreciate what makes Albion, A&A and others different from third world mass produced swords. There's a lot--more than any one post would tell. What makes Albion (and others) different extends so far beyond Scotchbrite and cord-wrapped grips. Happy

Happy

ChadA

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Matthew Harrington




Location: Michigan
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
The snobbery comment is offensive. Your post also shows that you don't yet appreciate what makes Albion, A&A and others different from third world mass produced swords. There's a lot--more than any one post would tell. What makes Albion (and others) different extends so far beyond Scotchbrite and cord-wrapped grips. Happy


I would agree with this. I've only owned three swords in my life since I'm fairly young and a starting collector, but I owned a Windlass 5 Lobe viking sword, it was very "whippy" as some people call it. It wasn't a very well crafted sword over all, my second sword (A Hanwei/Tinker Viking) is a much better sword for around the same price range, after having the H/T for just a week I immediately sold the Windlass and I don't plan on buying any Windlass products again. I haven't owned an Albion, but I've handled and cut with one, the difference is very distinct between budget swords and quality made swords in my opinion. The Albion made my H/T feel kind of crappy (And I love my H/T). Anyways that's my opinion and experience with Windlass. Hope it helped.

~See you in Valhalla, brother.~
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Matthew P. Adams




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with everything Chad posted.

You aren't paying for the Albion name, you are paying for the time and dedication it takes to research and measure antique weapons with a micrometer and accurately reproduce the weight, balance, and behavior of weapons made when they were used to take and defend lives.

That said I do like my Windlass Medieval Dagger, and I did scotchbrite the finish to a more plausible look. Of course, they have since discontinued that dagger.

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Martin Whalen





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 7:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't normally post, but I'll reply short and sweet.

Buy one of their very affordable Qamas, they are fun and worth it. Other than that, it's up to you.

Luceo Non Uro.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Windlass swords are hit and miss on quality control. You might get something that is OK, or it might have a stupid, glaring mistake on it. It is unlikely that good blade geometry has been designed in, so that it will be more clunky to wield that it should be. Their tang construction has also been suspect over the years, and their hilts tend to loosen up way too easily.

A Windlass may be alright as a first sword, but you will then want something better. That's the way it was for me. I think a Hanwei/Tinker is a much better choice for an entry level sword. They aren't perfect, but they'll give you a good idea of what a sword should be like.

It's getting tiresome to be called a snob because I like good swords better than bad ones.
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 8:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Museum Replicas trend in catering to the costumers has put a bit of a less than useful flavor in the mouth of many.

However

My first reproduction sword is a Windlass and still gets some regular flourishing, as does my Patton and a rapier that was of a small batch sold a few years ago. There have been some real gems reported by some over the years and not just ironically, the same swords are disliked by some. There is no doubt that personal and subjective preferences come into play in threads regarding windlass sword worth. Some swords that were re manufactured due to demand, then lingered on shelves in stock.

An interesting note in browsing the Museum Replicas site today was that the Hessian sword and axe have been removed from the site. Never to return? I don't know but then in checking Kult of Athena, the sword was still in stock earlier in the morning. They had been out of stock / back ordered quite recently. So, did KOA just snap up the last of them? I don;t know but they seem popular enough that the first (only?) batch. Not so of the Gladiator wares, they willl probably linger for years and show up on the Deal of The Day.

As I am fond of the Hessian sword from the movie, I wouldn't mind it as a wallhanger. For using swords, I'd probably be looking at a whole lot more of the market than considering the current Windlass line up but a few have looked appealing enough to me that they make a very long list of mebbes. When I can take the price of a couple and spend on antiques instead, you kind of get where my own priorities lie.

$100 +- to me means possibly buying another militia (or other) sword from more than a century and a half ago

Cheers

GC
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This situation is in flux due not only to Windlass/MRL trends, but also due to other developments in the hobby.

When the best of the Windlass pieces (still flawed in most ways) hit the Deal of the Day (DOTD) bin for under $160, that's a fair price if you're going to leave them as-is, and it's a bargain if you're going to upgrade them or cannibalize them for other projects. As others have noted, pieces fitting that description are getting harder to come by lately. My great frustration with the company is that they tend to go out of their way--using modern designs and excessive material--to make pieces historically inaccurate.

I used to rely on the DOTD offerings for blades, accepting that there's a bit of work involved to make them more historically accurate in section, length, etc. The steel and heat treatment are fine. And although you can't increase the thickness of their stock, you can choose projects that demand thinner blades--broad cutting types and Type XVIII as opposed to thick thrusting blades or less common types. But never mind all that, because the Hanwei-Tinker bare bastard sword blade is a thick, sharp, narrow Type XVIII that will serve many different types of mounting, and can be used as a bastard sword or as a single-hand sword with a shortened tang. When those are available, they're under $130. There are other HT options, but it seems to me that this one is most useful. You can even get a bare Albion blade now for under $200, so there isn't much reason to camp on the MRL DOTD site anymore unless you're waiting for the rare offering with useful blade and hilt (I'd probably get another Erbach if they come up, but the cross is of little use).

Then there's the hilt furniture. This is now harder to find than blades. Again, the best Windlass hilts are close enough to plausible that they can be fixed with some basic shop work, but their interesting hilts typically are accompanied by blades that are too far beyond my skill, time and interest to fix. These days, I find it's best to scrounge for hilt components in the Marketplace here, beg A&A for off-menu castings or just DIY. The next step up is custom casting. The sculpting presents no problem for me but I can't find a local small-batch foundry. So, I'm in a bit of a corner. I'm no longer satisfied with what I get from modified Windlass and nobody is offering historically accurate components off the shelf. There are custom manufacturers, but that gets pricey. If I wanted to start an arms business, I'd just offer a few types of rough hilt castings based on the H-T tang. The H-T line appears to remain in limbo after the factory fire, though. I dearly wish A&A and Albion would offer rough hilt castings as part of their regular businesses. I understand why they don't, but I think if they offered only the rough, un-drilled pieces they'd weed out some of the people most likely to make a monstrosity and parade it around as an Albion or A&A. Leo "Tod" Todeschini is the equivalent among knife cutlers, and he offers kits for those who can't afford his own exceptional craftsmanship. Some turn out well, some don't.

I'm at the point where my best Windlass-based creation can sit beside my EBE and A&A pieces, but that's just one piece. Everything else looks out of place in that group. If you study this stuff long enough you'll probably arrive at the same place, though perhaps it can be delayed if you're willing and able to tackle the lesser pieces as DIY projects. I find that Windlass/MRL just doesn't offer those opportunities as it once did.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Josh MacNeil




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going to avoid the whole compare/contrast this and that company since most people covered it pretty well, and some up my own sentiments by saying, you get what you pay for with Windlass. Are they a bad company? Of course not. I think much of their bad press comes from those seeking more from their purchases than Windlass is able (or willing) to offer. That's not to say they don't have QC issues. All companies do from time to time. But a QC slip up from a 3rd world mass produced manufacturer shouldn't cause as much of a headache as one from a high end company with a reputation for quality.

Like Sean said, they offer some great models for DIY projects and upgrades. And in fact you can increase the value slightly by putting in some finish work and using some higher quality materials fro scabbards and grips. It all depends what the individual wants out of their purchase. If you want an inexpensive, fun project that can end up looking better than what you originally received, Windlass fits the bill nicely. If you want an historically accurate, high performance piece with a crisp fit and finish "right out of the box" so to speak, then the buyer should look elsewhere; and certainly expect to spend more money.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For what it's worth, this is the best of my many Windlass projects. If you're interested in the step-by-step and review of the stock sword, see this thread: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17261&start=0


 Attachment: 104.03 KB
erbachbare_515.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

and here's a side-by-side comparison of similar swords from A&A and WS. I ended up selling the WS hilt and using the blade in project (also now sold). http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...p;start=20
-Sean

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Jack Savante





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like I rocked the boat there, my apologies, but it is my sincere belief that Windlasses can be as good as any maker with a bit of work.

In answer to your question Windlass make good swords compared to Hanwei, probably in the same ball park in most regards.

With Hanwei you often get stainless steel fittings which I don't like personally, whereas Windlass use a lot of brass fittings which, while not in vogue are frequently depicted in historical illuminations and art.

When you pay more money for swords like Albion etc. you get extra details like a nice grip, matte finish and more which come done, rather than having to be done but all those things are doable with a bit of practise and honestly having owned both Windlass and Albion I don't believe are truly worth the extra 1000 they will cost to buy from Albion.

I say give Windlass a go, I don't think you will be disappointed, though if you are a stickler for the finer touches, you will want to do some DIY.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack Savante wrote:
Looks like I rocked the boat there, my apologies, but it is my sincere belief that Windlasses can be as good as any maker with a bit of work.

In answer to your question Windlass make good swords compared to Hanwei, probably in the same ball park in most regards.

With Hanwei you often get stainless steel fittings which I don't like personally, whereas Windlass use a lot of brass fittings which, while not in vogue are frequently depicted in historical illuminations and art.

When you pay more money for swords like Albion etc. you get extra details like a nice grip, matte finish and more which come done, rather than having to be done but all those things are doable with a bit of practise and honestly having owned both Windlass and Albion I don't believe are truly worth the extra 1000 they will cost to buy from Albion.

I say give Windlass a go, I don't think you will be disappointed, though if you are a stickler for the finer touches, you will want to do some DIY.

I totally disagree that Windlass can ever be made to compare to an Albion. It's alot more than "nice grip , matte finish" that make the Albion better. It's the fundamental design of the sword. The blade geometry and the balance and little details like proper shaping of the pommels. Windlass rarely gets these things right. When PJohnsson and the guys at Albion do the design for the Albion swords they work diligently to make sure it conforms to the proper traits for a sword of its type. Windlass doesn't and no amount of new grips or grey scotch brite is gonna fix that...

Windlass is fine if you want a sword to wear to the RennFaire or chop stuff in the backyard, but for me they always feel like they are missing something (or alot of somethings usually)

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Glen A Cleeton




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
Jack Savante wrote:
Looks like I rocked the boat there, my apologies, but it is my sincere belief that Windlasses can be as good as any maker with a bit of work.

In answer to your question Windlass make good swords compared to Hanwei, probably in the same ball park in most regards.

With Hanwei you often get stainless steel fittings which I don't like personally, whereas Windlass use a lot of brass fittings which, while not in vogue are frequently depicted in historical illuminations and art.

When you pay more money for swords like Albion etc. you get extra details like a nice grip, matte finish and more which come done, rather than having to be done but all those things are doable with a bit of practise and honestly having owned both Windlass and Albion I don't believe are truly worth the extra 1000 they will cost to buy from Albion.

I say give Windlass a go, I don't think you will be disappointed, though if you are a stickler for the finer touches, you will want to do some DIY.

I totally disagree that Windlass can ever be made to compare to an Albion. It's alot more than "nice grip , matte finish" that make the Albion better. It's the fundamental design of the sword. The blade geometry and the balance and little details like proper shaping of the pommels. Windlass rarely gets these things right. When PJohnsson and the guys at Albion do the design for the Albion swords they work diligently to make sure it conforms to the proper traits for a sword of its type. Windlass doesn't and no amount of new grips or grey scotch brite is gonna fix that...

Windlass is fine if you want a sword to wear to the RennFaire or chop stuff in the backyard, but for me they always feel like they are missing something (or alot of somethings usually)


Robin speaks to some truths here and I would say that Windlass has (for the most part) been going backwards in terms of producing wares true to form. The anachronisms shown in even their most "historic" examples leave a lot to be desired.

Windlass does still offer an entry level portal but more and more marketed to the rennie market. It is somewhat sad to say Darksword Armory will pick up some of that slack while others will persist in saying hAnwei has less to offer than these two. I don't find that to be true, as more and more of the Hanwei wares have been more largely embraced by the general market than Windlass and Darksword Armory.. Don;t get me wrong, I have many times over the decade or so been called out as schilling for Windlass but only so in pointing them out as an alternative. Even some plugs for Darksword, although I despise the company immensely on a personal level (let alone the product itself).

Mentioned by someone else here is that a Windlass will lead to other sword company possibilities. Too true.

An aside, the Hessian sword went out of stock/ backordered again and as mentioned, no longer listed on Museum Replicas at all (as well as the axe) What does that speak to the demand of costume and fantasy swords from Windlass?

I wouldn't mind finding one of the German Backsword as well and should have grabbed one at the end of it.

Cheers

GC.
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