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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Sun 28 Oct, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Cross-hilt sword for Bolognese fencing?         Reply with quote

I have had in my mind to get a sword that I could use in Bolognese fencing, but also in other styles that involve one-handed arming sword. I would prefer a weapon with a cut and thrust - blade, but with a simple cross hilt (no finger rings) and round disk pommel. Blunt of course. Did weapons like this exist in early/middle 16th century and can anyone give examples?
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Sun 28 Oct, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about this Del Tin - DT6165

Also, check out this Sword put together by Sean Flynt. Look at his finished product on page 2.

Of course they do have a side ring, but no finger rings


Last edited by Roger Hooper on Sun 28 Oct, 2012 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Sun 28 Oct, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you are wanting a plain, cross hilted sword without any finger rings or complex hilt configurations, I think it would be best to look for examples of late Oakshott Type XVIII swords. There might be a few that meet your description. However, most single handed swords in the 16th century, particularly single handed swords, had some sort of additional hilt elements. I think, for the sake of accuracy, you are probably better off getting a slender 16th century blade with or without additional hilt elements, and use that.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 4:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

swords of the "Henry V" style have been found on the Mary Rose. Type XVIII, simple downturned cross with wheel or globular pommel. so, you're safe with that form into the 1540s.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Hooper wrote:
How about this Del Tin - DT6165

Also, check out this Sword put together by Sean Flynt. Look at his finished product on page 2.

Of course they do have a side ring, but no finger rings


The Del Tin is quite fancy. The sword made by Sean is a good example of what I have in mind.

I might get a Darkwood sidesword blade, about 35 inches long and try to find the hilt parts somewhere.

Thanks.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The horizontally recurved cross with globular pommel appears to have have been common, too.

I'm pondering another project of this type because I really like the whole concept. If I do that, it'll be on much the same line as this previous one, using either the H-T bastard or longsword blade and the same pommel treatment, but with a modified A&A Dürer cross.

I think that if you keep it simple, you can cover a wide chronological range with a sword like this. As far as I can tell, it would be more Italian than anything. Generic, unless you add some decorative detail to narrow the period. Filed pommel and quillon terminal, wire-bound grip, etc.

My earlier project, shown below from the inside perspective, shows what I would think is appropriate for both sides of the cross--no ring needed. With or without a ring, I'd prefer horizontally recurved quillons. This is a very handy weapon in this configuration and with that particular blade. Very quick, and very capable in the thrust and cut.

This is a relatively cheap setup, too, if you can do a bit of work on your own. The H-T blade is now around $130. An Alchem pommel is $12. A flat and flared cross is pretty easy to find and easy to recurve. You can definitely put together something nice for under $200 IF you can DIY. You might even be able to find a cheap Windlass or Hanwei rapier and saw off most of the bars of the hilt to make something of the earlier style.



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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not normally my cup-o'-tea, but I looked at Sean's project and the pictures here, and am very pleased and amazed with the final result of the 'Italian Job.' Great lines--what sorts of techniques is it most appropriate for, though? What does it feel like it 'belongs' to?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kai Lawson wrote:
Not normally my cup-o'-tea, but I looked at Sean's project and the pictures here, and am very pleased and amazed with the final result of the 'Italian Job.' Great lines--what sorts of techniques is it most appropriate for, though? What does it feel like it 'belongs' to?


That's a tough question. It's a light arming sword, suitable for field and civilian carry. Beyond that, I would simply guess that it would work with any double-edge sword technique that doesn't specifically rely on hilt protection of the hand. I don't practice WMA, so I'll have to leave details to my fighting friends. Big Grin

I will observe that it's light enough that you don't really have to put a finger over the cross. Plenty of control without that.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe the Albion Doge, the Machiavelli, the Condottiere with very minimal early complex guards:

http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...an-xix.htm
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...an-xix.htm
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/albion/ne...re-xix.htm

The A&A Knightly Riding sword with a simple guard:

http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword036.html

Del Tin DT 6162 Early Italian Rapier:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ian+Rapier

Del Tin DT 2159 Venetian backsword, maybe ?
( Not sure if the Bolognese system works well with a single edged sword):

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Back+Sword

I think the Bolognese style would work with any period appropriate sword with simple cross guard or simple guards with side rings and or knuckle bow guard. Even early rapier types would work with the system but probably with a wider cut and trust blade.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, the swords in the Doge's palace! I visited the palace this summer. It was marvellous to see all those swords.

Sean, your sword is the style I am after, but a blunt training sword. The blade I can get from the Darkwood. No doupt also the hilt parts, but I would prefer recycled hilt.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pauli Vennervirta wrote:

Sean, your sword is the style I am after, but a blunt training sword. The blade I can get from the Darkwood. No doupt also the hilt parts, but I would prefer recycled hilt.


If you're training/sparring, that's the way to go. You should price a simple Darkwood hilt, too. By the time you find a used hilt and modify it properly, build a grip, assemble, etc., you might find it worth the price to have DA do it.

This place does affordable custom work: http://www.yeshuas-sword.com/sword_hilt_parts.html

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Mackenzie Cosens




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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
Ah, the swords in the Doge's palace! I visited the palace this summer. It was marvellous to see all those swords.

Sean, your sword is the style I am after, but a blunt training sword. The blade I can get from the Darkwood. No doupt also the hilt parts, but I would prefer recycled hilt.


Talk Scott at Darkwood in my experience he as been willing to produce custom pieces at a reasonably price. He made me a custom simple cross hilt with side ring like those shown in Meyer. My Meyer has a DA3S Spada blade, I find it to be a little light but was legal on a now obsolete rule set for SCA style rapier play. Darkwood Broadsword/Side-sword blades are nice but I really like his back-sword blade.

If you get Scott to make the piece then all the bits will fit together without issue and you get his experience on what makes a good practice sword.

Do the people you are practising with have any rules for what simulator are legal?

mackenzie
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Cross-hilt sword for Bolognese fencing?         Reply with quote

Pauli Vennervirta wrote:
I have had in my mind to get a sword that I could use in Bolognese fencing, but also in other styles that involve one-handed arming sword. I would prefer a weapon with a cut and thrust - blade, but with a simple cross hilt (no finger rings) and round disk pommel. Blunt of course. Did weapons like this exist in early/middle 16th century and can anyone give examples?


Not only did weapons like this exist in the period of Bolognese fencing, but they're also explicitly illustrated in the Bolognese fencing treatises. For example, simple cross-hilted swords are all over Marozzo's work:


Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Tue 30 Oct, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill, so it seems. In those pictures the fencer is holding his finger over the quillon but not in all cases. So I gather that the choise is free. I personally prefer to keep my fingers behind the quillon, in extended classes I find it slightly uncomfortable to finger the quillon and anyway the fingers are safer in sparring my way.

Quess I just prefer to keep things simple. So I search something that I can use as a medieval/early renessaince arming sword but not tied too tightly to any specific era or style. Thank you all for the tips.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Oct, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nicholas Carew, ca. 1532


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 30 Oct, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Two more


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-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Tue 30 Oct, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That would make a very nice custom sword. I have the Hanwei-Tinker longsword. Hmm.... get the hilt parts from Yeshua, make a handle myself... Blade to training version from Darkwood...
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Pauli Vennervirta





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PostPosted: Wed 07 Nov, 2012 12:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just came across this one: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?p=258321#258321

Apart from the finger ring, this is a good example of what I have in mind.
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