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Pauli Vennervirta
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 Posted: Sun 28 Oct, 2012 3:27 pm Post subject: Cross-hilt sword for Bolognese fencing? |
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I have had in my mind to get a sword that I could use in Bolognese fencing, but also in other styles that involve one-handed arming sword. I would prefer a weapon with a cut and thrust - blade, but with a simple cross hilt (no finger rings) and round disk pommel. Blunt of course. Did weapons like this exist in early/middle 16th century and can anyone give examples?
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Roger Hooper
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| Posted: Sun 28 Oct, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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How about this Del Tin - DT6165
Also, check out this Sword put together by Sean Flynt. Look at his finished product on page 2.
Of course they do have a side ring, but no finger rings
Last edited by Roger Hooper on Sun 28 Oct, 2012 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Craig Peters
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| Posted: Sun 28 Oct, 2012 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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If you are wanting a plain, cross hilted sword without any finger rings or complex hilt configurations, I think it would be best to look for examples of late Oakshott Type XVIII swords. There might be a few that meet your description. However, most single handed swords in the 16th century, particularly single handed swords, had some sort of additional hilt elements. I think, for the sake of accuracy, you are probably better off getting a slender 16th century blade with or without additional hilt elements, and use that.
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Sean Flynt
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Pauli Vennervirta
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Roger Hooper wrote: | How about this Del Tin - DT6165
Also, check out this Sword put together by Sean Flynt. Look at his finished product on page 2.
Of course they do have a side ring, but no finger rings |
The Del Tin is quite fancy. The sword made by Sean is a good example of what I have in mind.
I might get a Darkwood sidesword blade, about 35 inches long and try to find the hilt parts somewhere.
Thanks.
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 7:22 am Post subject: |
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The horizontally recurved cross with globular pommel appears to have have been common, too.
I'm pondering another project of this type because I really like the whole concept. If I do that, it'll be on much the same line as this previous one, using either the H-T bastard or longsword blade and the same pommel treatment, but with a modified A&A Dürer cross.
I think that if you keep it simple, you can cover a wide chronological range with a sword like this. As far as I can tell, it would be more Italian than anything. Generic, unless you add some decorative detail to narrow the period. Filed pommel and quillon terminal, wire-bound grip, etc.
My earlier project, shown below from the inside perspective, shows what I would think is appropriate for both sides of the cross--no ring needed. With or without a ring, I'd prefer horizontally recurved quillons. This is a very handy weapon in this configuration and with that particular blade. Very quick, and very capable in the thrust and cut.
This is a relatively cheap setup, too, if you can do a bit of work on your own. The H-T blade is now around $130. An Alchem pommel is $12. A flat and flared cross is pretty easy to find and easy to recurve. You can definitely put together something nice for under $200 IF you can DIY. You might even be able to find a cheap Windlass or Hanwei rapier and saw off most of the bars of the hilt to make something of the earlier style.
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-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Kai Lawson
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Not normally my cup-o'-tea, but I looked at Sean's project and the pictures here, and am very pleased and amazed with the final result of the 'Italian Job.' Great lines--what sorts of techniques is it most appropriate for, though? What does it feel like it 'belongs' to?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Kai Lawson wrote: | | Not normally my cup-o'-tea, but I looked at Sean's project and the pictures here, and am very pleased and amazed with the final result of the 'Italian Job.' Great lines--what sorts of techniques is it most appropriate for, though? What does it feel like it 'belongs' to? |
That's a tough question. It's a light arming sword, suitable for field and civilian carry. Beyond that, I would simply guess that it would work with any double-edge sword technique that doesn't specifically rely on hilt protection of the hand. I don't practice WMA, so I'll have to leave details to my fighting friends. 
I will observe that it's light enough that you don't really have to put a finger over the cross. Plenty of control without that.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Jean Thibodeau
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Pauli Vennervirta
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 1:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, the swords in the Doge's palace! I visited the palace this summer. It was marvellous to see all those swords.
Sean, your sword is the style I am after, but a blunt training sword. The blade I can get from the Darkwood. No doupt also the hilt parts, but I would prefer recycled hilt.
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Pauli Vennervirta wrote: |
Sean, your sword is the style I am after, but a blunt training sword. The blade I can get from the Darkwood. No doupt also the hilt parts, but I would prefer recycled hilt. |
If you're training/sparring, that's the way to go. You should price a simple Darkwood hilt, too. By the time you find a used hilt and modify it properly, build a grip, assemble, etc., you might find it worth the price to have DA do it.
This place does affordable custom work: http://www.yeshuas-sword.com/sword_hilt_parts.html
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Mackenzie Cosens
Location: Vancouver Canada Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 238
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Pauli Vennervirta wrote: | Ah, the swords in the Doge's palace! I visited the palace this summer. It was marvellous to see all those swords.
Sean, your sword is the style I am after, but a blunt training sword. The blade I can get from the Darkwood. No doupt also the hilt parts, but I would prefer recycled hilt. |
Talk Scott at Darkwood in my experience he as been willing to produce custom pieces at a reasonably price. He made me a custom simple cross hilt with side ring like those shown in Meyer. My Meyer has a DA3S Spada blade, I find it to be a little light but was legal on a now obsolete rule set for SCA style rapier play. Darkwood Broadsword/Side-sword blades are nice but I really like his back-sword blade.
If you get Scott to make the piece then all the bits will fit together without issue and you get his experience on what makes a good practice sword.
Do the people you are practising with have any rules for what simulator are legal?
mackenzie
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team
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| Posted: Mon 29 Oct, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Cross-hilt sword for Bolognese fencing? |
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| Pauli Vennervirta wrote: | | I have had in my mind to get a sword that I could use in Bolognese fencing, but also in other styles that involve one-handed arming sword. I would prefer a weapon with a cut and thrust - blade, but with a simple cross hilt (no finger rings) and round disk pommel. Blunt of course. Did weapons like this exist in early/middle 16th century and can anyone give examples? |
Not only did weapons like this exist in the period of Bolognese fencing, but they're also explicitly illustrated in the Bolognese fencing treatises. For example, simple cross-hilted swords are all over Marozzo's work:
HistoricalHandcrafts.com
-Inspired by History, Crafted by Hand
"For practice is better than artfulness. Your exercise can do well without artfulness, but artfulness is not much good without the exercise.” -anonymous 15th century fencing master, MS 3227a
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Pauli Vennervirta
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| Posted: Tue 30 Oct, 2012 2:22 am Post subject: |
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Bill, so it seems. In those pictures the fencer is holding his finger over the quillon but not in all cases. So I gather that the choise is free. I personally prefer to keep my fingers behind the quillon, in extended classes I find it slightly uncomfortable to finger the quillon and anyway the fingers are safer in sparring my way.
Quess I just prefer to keep things simple. So I search something that I can use as a medieval/early renessaince arming sword but not tied too tightly to any specific era or style. Thank you all for the tips.
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Sean Flynt
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Sean Flynt
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Pauli Vennervirta
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| Posted: Tue 30 Oct, 2012 9:04 am Post subject: |
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That would make a very nice custom sword. I have the Hanwei-Tinker longsword. Hmm.... get the hilt parts from Yeshua, make a handle myself... Blade to training version from Darkwood...
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Pauli Vennervirta
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This is a standard topic
