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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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Posts: 257

PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: barbute/bascinet avential?         Reply with quote

Hello all,

I have been researching this style of barbute/bascinet helm for awhile and needed help trying to figure something out. I was wondering how this would have had an aventail attached. Or would this have been a coif, worn under the helm? I'v seen aventails that have been fastened from the inside through various historical art, but I had a hard time seeing how this one would have been done. I didn't see any holes on the sides indicating that this was done in this surviving helm, but I have found an image that shows a similar style of helm, showing either an aventail or coif.

Thanks in Advance Happy
-Reece



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Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2012 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to add a third option, it may have been used in conjunction with a simple mantle of maille instead of a full coif or aventail. That would, in my opinion be the simplest answer. The coverage on that helmet would make a coif largely unnecessary, and like you've pointed out, an aventail would be tricky to affix to that particular helmet.
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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Location: Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Ian that a mantle is a consideration. If the archaeological record is any indication, mantles were also far more common than coifs, of which only a few remain. In addition to the historical context, there are practical payoffs; having a well-made mantle with a dense standing collar would be an improvement over having the same maille dragging at your bascinet, and without the layer of maille on your head you could have a tighter fitting helm, which has its advantages. The disadvantage of choosing a mantle would probably be the difficulty in finding someone who would do a good job of making you one.

Best of luck,

-Hildebrandt

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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: barbute/bascinet avential?         Reply with quote

Hmm...I had never thought of a mantle Big Grin Does anyone have any photos of any surviving examples, or reproductions?

This helm is currently on sale and have been looking at perhaps buying it to go with my early 15th century kit. I'v documented this style of visor and bascinet shape through historical artwork, and thinks this might work great for foot combat!
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most commonly you'll find them in English catalogs listed as Standards, though they might be listed as Pisanes or Pizanes as well. Here's an example in the British Museum with a 6:1 mail collar.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_...%A4tPage=6

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Michael R. Mann




Location: Germany
Joined: 26 Jun 2012

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Wed 24 Oct, 2012 6:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Which kind of mantle do you mean exactly?
Something like that:http://www.churburg.com/uploads/pics/Ruestkammer01.jpg (should be combined with a coif)?
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