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Vincent C




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 24 Aug 2009

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Spanish Montante trainer         Reply with quote

I thought I would share this training sword for the montante I found on a spanish website. They based the specs off of the the Garcia de Paredes montante.

http://www.thetimeseller.com/product/6177/0/0...ntante.htm

It looks like it would work quite well for training, especially for the price.

Honor, compassion, knowledge.
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Mackenzie Cosens




Location: Vancouver Canada
Joined: 08 Aug 2007

Posts: 238

PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arms and Armor http://armour.com also have great sword trainers

Montante Trainer
http://armour.com/train233.html

Spadone Trainer
http://armour.com/train234.html
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Vincent C




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 24 Aug 2009

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well aware, I love my A&A montante trainer.

I shared this one mostly because of the price difference. Not everyone has 700usd laying around, especially if shipping overseas. With shipping, this is still likely less than 500usd. I hear the maker of these is also quite good, and alternatives always make things interesting.

This sword could be good, I've heard good things about the maker. It could be bad, I've never handled it. I don't know, but I thought it was worth sharing because the potential exists.

The prospect of a Spanish montante trainer from Spain might also appeal to some. I find the more Germanic-looking parrying hooks to be an interesting choice.

Honor, compassion, knowledge.
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Kalle Kylmänen





Joined: 18 Jul 2010

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Fri 19 Oct, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just to list some more options, Peter regenyi makes some very good training swords, a montante among them.


http://regenyei.sg18.net/en_feders.html

The site doesn't give any specs though... Customization to a certain extent shouldn't be a problem.


----
Does anyone have experience with timeseller's marshal historical weapon line? Many of their products are quite cheap, and look the part.

This messer costs 91,26€ and for that price I would expect to get a miserably (if at all) heat-treated crowbar. With the 2 mm edges it could make a passable training instrument if the steel holds up to it. The company also offers more expensive and refined looking pieces like the montante, so I'm wondering about the qualities of these.
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 456

PostPosted: Sat 20 Oct, 2012 6:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alchem makes one for about $400.00. Looks like a heck of a good deal.

http://www.alcheminc.com/spadone.html



Also, for an excellent "on a budget" option, there are the Purpleheart synthetic and hickory options. The least expensive of which is $80.00 before shipping. I have the synthetic trainer, and I really like it.

http://www.woodenswords.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1849

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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José-Manuel Benito




Location: Medina del Campo, Spain
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
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Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sun 21 Oct, 2012 4:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kalle Kylmänen wrote:
Does anyone have experience with timeseller's marshal historical weapon line? Many of their products are quite cheap, and look the part.


'The Time Seller' is the most important Spanish online-store of reenactment and historical fencing, and it works with several brands.

IMO, the «Marshal Historical» brand born of a collaboration agreement with GDFB (but I'm not sure). Both companies offer the same products at the same price, but with a different label, in Spain is used «Marshal Historical». In any case «Marshal Historical» product line is more focused on Reenactment, and also offers more variety (not only weapons) at cheaper prices, its seal are three small crowns. As Spanish manufacturer, «Marshal Historical», often, offer pieces inspired exclusively in Iberian sources, for example, Las Cantigas of Alfonso X "the Wise". But they never are hand-made pieces.

Although, the Montante you are referring to is not of that line, but of 'Armenteros'. 'The Time Seller' is working also with Spanish crafters, in this case with Julio Armenteros, whose label is a crowned capital 'A'. 'Armenteros' is more focused on equipment for training in Historical Fencing and collection swords (replicas or close interpretations); its products are usually high quality and higher prices, because they have an important hand-made work (not all phases, but some of them are hand-made).

I don't belong to the AEEA, and I not have ever bought 'Armenteros' products, so what I'm going to say can't be considered official: Julio Armenteros often works in close collaboration with the Spanish association of Historical fencing AEEA (Asociación Española de Esgrima Antigua), and many of its products meet on the line of researchs of this association (swords, shields, bucklers…). Recently, AEEA has researching in deep the combat with Montante. Initially, this study was performed only by instructors (maestro Bomprezzi, provosts and monitors).

But now, this is my impression, I guess the AEEA is going to try that in some fencing rooms they begin to teach combat with montante. Perhaps, for this reason Armenteros has developed an affordable piece, not only for teachers of historical fencing, but also available for students.

Although, you should be careful with my opinions, because I can be wrong, since I do not know the intricacies of the AEEA association. It is even possible that all this matter has nothing to do with the AEEA and was a product of my imagination.

What is certain is that 'Marshal Historical' is a line of cheap products for reenactment; and that has nothing to do with Julio Armenteros, that is a very good craftsman.

PS.: In expressing my opinions I don't intend to interfere in the activities of my countrymen neither make value judgments. I just try to clarify doubts of forumites and if I am wrong I apologize to The Time Seller, to Julio Armenteros and to the AEEA association.

Regards
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon 22 Oct, 2012 8:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

NIce find Vincent, i think you sent me a link from this site some time ago.

i'm still thursting for my two hander - but i'm torn with building up my shop first. to make blades or to buy blades THAT is the question.
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Vincent C




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 24 Aug 2009

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Tue 27 Nov, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The time seller has a new montante style now, one of the more expensive ones like its brother the Montante II, but this looks interesting.



http://www.thetimeseller.com/product/6264/0/0...anillo.htm

Not sure I've seen a double ring two-hander reproduction without parrying hooks anywhere before.

[EDIT]
If the precut blade option is chosen on this or the Montante I or II, the price is reduced by 200 euros.

Honor, compassion, knowledge.


Last edited by Vincent C on Sun 02 Dec, 2012 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sat 01 Dec, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

actually it's a good option for the exclusion of the parying lugs a compound ring design will function the same, so i see it as something very pratical.

i like this hilt, and grip, i think its one of the best ones i've seen to date - by the way of looks.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Fri 07 Dec, 2012 1:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That one is just awesome. On the downside, though, it means that my sword-shopping list continues to grow much faster than I can buy the items.
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Fri 07 Dec, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

what's nice is that the one pictured above is quite close to the specs that i found on a historical sword (for distal taper). so i'd estimate that it would be a good comparison to help understand the iberian two handed sword. i though i could see a bevel in the blades in the official site - they it must be very slight. other than missing a clear cross section of either hexagonal or diamond the blades dimensions look good.
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Patrick De Block




Location: Belgium
Joined: 10 Aug 2008

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec, 2012 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Of all the reproductions of a Montante I've seen, the one by The Time Sellers is the first one that speaks to me.

Daniël,

Do you mind to post those specs you've found or rather the site you've found them on?

Thank you.
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 456

PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec, 2012 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What is a "precut" blade option? Not sharpened?
"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sat 08 Dec, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick,

i'm sorry, but the information i have came from an individual that did not want it 'broadcast' due to their relationship with the swords owner. recently i haven't been able to follow up and gather more information on the Montante that i know of that are practically siblings of this sword.

the last ones i attempted to get solid info on where the two Montante in the cleveland museum of art. i was shot down by the curator as he referred to his book - which i have not gotten since. i know their length and from that with a little photo shop can get their profile taper. but i can't get distal taper and i don't know if his book would have that listed. with distal taper its like a missing puzzle piece.

i wish that i could get access to document them in my own way, but i don't think i'd be allow access i'm just an average joe that happens like the swords. i would like, somehow in the future, get enough info to recreate a sharp - but being that a custom can cost 2,000 -4,000 + i don't think i'd be able to fund something like that, id rather get a pice of tempered spring steel and by stock removal process make the blade myself.
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Patrick De Block




Location: Belgium
Joined: 10 Aug 2008

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sun 09 Dec, 2012 3:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No problem, Daniël, I'll keep looking around. And if I find something ... And good luck when you start your project.
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Patrick De Block




Location: Belgium
Joined: 10 Aug 2008

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

José-Manuel,

Without your permission I wrote an e-mail to Alberto Bomprezzi, without quoting your name, asking about the information you wrote. This is his answer (with his permission), sorry about not asking you first.

"If I am getting it right the thread is about Julio Armenteros montante and the possibility that we introduce it as a weapon in the regular training.

I have seen both of them and the most expensive is an impressive piece, really beautiful, and perfectly balanced, very similar to many of the original pieces I have handled in Spain, Italy and Czech Republic.

The cheaper version is perfect for training though the work done in the blade and handle is not so elaborated, but it works great for training.

Both designs were made to offer to practitioners correct training tools. Nevertheless there is not inside the AEEA schools regular fencing with the montante. We use it the way it was used in fencing salles in the old days, to train but there are not fencing assaults with one montante against the other. As far as we know historically they did not fence with montante, they only used it in real situations. They trained how to handle it efficiently but did not fence with it. We do exactly the same for the same reasons. Nevertheless this fact does not mean they are fragile and poorly constructed, on the contrary.

The cheaper version was developed to make it more affordable and expand its practice.

If you are interested in buying an Armenteros montante you will not be disappointed. I have a number of weapons from Julio and they are all wonderful."

And as a bonus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6MZ-dCpM2E

Patrick
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José-Manuel Benito




Location: Medina del Campo, Spain
Joined: 25 Nov 2008
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Au contraire, Patrick Wink

I think that thanks to you the things have been clarified; and the judgement of maestro Alberto Bomprezzi, as professional of historical fencing, should carry more weight than mine.

Regards Happy
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Vincent C




Location: Northern VA
Joined: 24 Aug 2009

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Thu 13 Dec, 2012 5:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
What is a "precut" blade option?


To the best of my knowledge, the precut blade is essentially stock removal. If I interpret the site correctly, the blade doesn't differ from sword to sword like the hilts do, though they say there is occasionally "blade modification" so it handles well.

Handcrafted blades are the ones that are pictured for the sword on the site. The precut may be the one they use for the practical montante, but since they may modify it a little per hilt it's hard to say.

Honor, compassion, knowledge.
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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun, 2014 2:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello all,

A friendly word of warning for those interested in buying an Armenteros montante for your practice, I just had mine fail disastrously a couple of days ago. It was the double ring variant and it broke in two at the top of the tang near the cross. The blade launched over my right shoulder after a backhand cut, I was very lucky to be alone and between two brick walls when this happened.

I have some pictures of the breakage here: http://s902.photobucket.com/user/MasterSpark8...amp;page=1

I am suspicious about the construction of the tang, as well as the possible weld around the tang and cross. I'm currently waiting on a reply from The Time Seller for a resolution on this.
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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
Joined: 24 Jul 2011

Posts: 328

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun, 2014 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's some pics of an original trainer currently at the Bardini in Florence, somebody should do an accurate reproduction.


 Attachment: 47.66 KB
bardini1.jpg


 Attachment: 30.98 KB
bardini2.jpg

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