Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Dome riveted maille vs wedge riveted. Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
S. Sebok





Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject: Dome riveted maille vs wedge riveted.         Reply with quote

I am wondering, ever since I saw wedge riveted maille for the first time in person at Days of Knights I noticed how much softer and smoother the inside is. It doesn't cut me AT ALL when I touch it. I been considering replacing my hauberk with a wedge riveted one because there are a LOT of threads on my gambeson that got torn from putting it on and taking it off. Don t want to wear that down in all honesty. Also cant stand getting cuts from putting it on, I actually got my fingernail RIPPED off thanks to my hauberk and it was bleeding and hurt.
I think historical dome riveted maille was flat on the back as well rather than the rivets sticking out as seen on indian maille. The wedge riveted stuff seems more accurate IMO even if it's indian made after seeing erik's maille upclose and seeing how it was a bit more similar to the wedge riveted indian maille it seems better suited for not cutting me and not pulling all the threads out in my gambeson. If I had seen it in person before buying it I probably would of went with wedge riveted due to the practicality of it being smoother than dome riveted.
What I am wondering is is it the flat rings that cause that damage or is it the rivets that cause the linen threads to pull out? I also think with solid rings it would be less damage as well as it has 50% less rivets than the dome riveted all. Probably would be more historically accurate as well due to one side being relatively flat. I guess seeing and owning a piece of Erik D Schmid's maille now thanks to buying a coif off of Jesse Bailey at DoK sorta spoiled me now with my taste in maille, in all honesty indian made dome riveted maille looks like crap now to me.
View user's profile Send private message
Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 746

PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree... Even though wedge rivets were not used in my period, the "dome" rivets are terrible in my opinion. I still feel that the wedge rivets are closer in overall profile.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,297

PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I'm not sure what you mean. Wedge rivets are simply not appropriate for some settings. The Romans, and most of Western Europe through the 13th century, used round rivets, and alternating rows of riveted and solid rings. Now, I think we all agree that the Indians don't get the shape of the ring right, with the ends too flattened, etc., and presumably it's those modern rivets which are causing you trouble. Have to say that I hadn't heard of anyone having THAT much trouble from Indian mail before, though, so I'm wondering if you got a particularly crappy example? There has to be some variation among manufacturers. And I suspect Erik's mail would be basically snag-free. So if round-riveted mail is appropriate for whatever impression you're doing, my feeling is that switching to the wrong kind of mail is not the right solution. (But I seriously doubt that the solid rings could be causing the problem!) I hope that helps!

Matthew
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
S. Sebok





Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well I got Icefalcon riveted maille in 9MM. I didn't have a problem with it snagging over my old cotton gambeson but over this new one it does, though everyone at DoK said it was ok I still notice the small differences and pulled fabric. Maybe it's cause it's linen and has larger loops? I know wedge riveted wasn't used till the late 13th early 14th centuries and only in Germany. It's a real shame they don't sell dome riveted that has a flat inside because I believe thats what causes all the issues with the snags on my linen gambeson. I payed a lot for the gambeson and it was custom made and I don't want it to wear out cause of simply having the wrong type of maille.
Also has to do with the fact I want maille with half non riveted links to be more accurate to the early period but they don't sell dome round riveted with solid flat punched rings like I would like. Also less rivets means less snagging. It's very painful to handle the maille and I get cuts, the GDFB all riveted coif I got is even worse and I actually cut my forehead putting it on and I was bleeding. I would suspect wedge riveted maille wouldn't do that nearly as much having the flat end.
Cap a pie is the only outfitter I've seen sell the kind of maille I am looking for (half round riveted and solid flat links) but I don't want to spend a ton for shipping. I just want to trade my hauberk for one with half solid links then I'll be satisfied. I may just buy a GDFB wedge riveted hauberk with solid links for 400 bucks and see if thats any bit better if it isn't I'll return it. I would assume the solid links wouldn't snag as much cutting my chances of a snag by 50%.
My wedge riveted round link Erik D Schmid coif doesn't snag at all, in fact I can put it on without ANY padding and not even feel a tiny bit of discomfort, it's smooth to the touch and the wedge rivets dont even snag on my hair when I put it on without an arming cap, pus I have long hair. If I tried that with the indian made maille I'd be getting cuts and snags left and right. Not sure if indian made wedge riveted maille would do the same but from the samples I saw from DoK it seemed a lot easier to put on and more smooth to the touch. Very nice stuff. From what I have heard he is actually trying to get people in india to make maille his way and sell it here for about 1700 for a haubergeon. That I would buy but not sure how to contact him.
View user's profile Send private message
Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 477

PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are there any non-Erik mail makers out there who'll do a solid/riveted alternating round rivet piece that doesn't look like washers looped to closed wire hooks? The mail either has nice smaller rings (that all look flattened and punched) or the rings are larger and don't convey a sense of fabric (as seen in some historic examples), rather looking like fine fishnetting. Does anyone know if Icefalcon is better than Cap-a-pie in this? Specifically for 10th-11th century. I saw the coif in question on modernchivalry.org, and it looks much better to me than the stuff at Cap-a-pie or Icefalcon (of course); but does anyone else come even visually close?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
View user's profile Send private message
Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 746

PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Well, I'm not sure what you mean. Wedge rivets are simply not appropriate for some settings. The Romans, and most of Western Europe through the 13th century, used round rivets, and alternating rows of riveted and solid rings. Now, I think we all agree that the Indians don't get the shape of the ring right, with the ends too flattened, etc., and presumably it's those modern rivets which are causing you trouble. Have to say that I hadn't heard of anyone having THAT much trouble from Indian mail before, though, so I'm wondering if you got a particularly crappy example? There has to be some variation among manufacturers. And I suspect Erik's mail would be basically snag-free. So if round-riveted mail is appropriate for whatever impression you're doing, my feeling is that switching to the wrong kind of mail is not the right solution. (But I seriously doubt that the solid rings could be causing the problem!) I hope that helps!

Matthew

Yeah, but the modern dome rivets are nothing like the round rivets used in period. The heads are entirely too large and protrude too far on both sides. They are nothing like the round rivets...

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
S. Sebok





Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Mon 15 Oct, 2012 11:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Erik's maille looks totally different from the indian made maille. Thankfully I saved his pics of his maille before his website was hacked and heres how historical medieval dome riveted maille looked


Notice the backside is basically flat, modern dome riveted maille doesnt have that effect which is why it's so harsh on both the skin and gambeson. If only they made maille like that.
View user's profile Send private message
Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 746

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S. Sebok wrote:
Erik's maille looks totally different from the indian made maille. Thankfully I saved his pics of his maille before his website was hacked and heres how historical medieval dome riveted maille looked


Notice the backside is basically flat, modern dome riveted maille doesnt have that effect which is why it's so harsh on both the skin and gambeson. If only they made maille like that.

Exactly. Round rivets in period are still closer to wedge rivets than they are to the modern dome rivets

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2012 5:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin,

I have looked at a great deal of original mail and to me neither of them is perfect and I am not seeing the argument flat wedge is better than round pin maille. It makes no sense as flat looks off in many ways as well. The links for example are far too flat most of the time. You are simply saying I prefer mine wrong or right in different ways.

S.,

Eric's mail is awesome but be careful but using one bit of mail, even period mail to represent all mail is a weak stance to take. There are plenty of examples of period round mail with nearly round cross sections. Here is the full hauberk from the Museum of London. The Links are basically completely round. Almost no flat sections at all. The RA has several bits and objects just like this. The major difference in this type of mail to Modern Indian stuff is that the wire ends are long and tapered where they overlap not flat and pierced. As you can see in the same suit there are some flatish but many are simply round.

I think the problem is too many people have set ideas on mail that excludes a large amount of period mail.

RPM



 Attachment: 178.06 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 746

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2012 5:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Robin,

I have looked at a great deal of original mail and to me neither of them is perfect and I am not seeing the argument flat wedge is better than round pin maille. It makes no sense as flat looks off in many ways as well. The links for example are far too flat most of the time. You are simply saying I prefer mine wrong or right in different ways.

Right, but I am talking about rivet cross section alone. Problems with ring shape are shared by both modern styles. When it comes to rivet shape and cross section, I feel wedge does a better job or approximating than do dome rivets no matter what style you depicting.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2012 6:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin,

Regarding the rivet itself I can see that. The wedge itself is fairly similar.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2012 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The far protruding modern double head round rivet is by far the most common in maille you can buy in shops, and also looks and functions wrong. They are also usually the weak link in the maille ring giving way first if you tear and twist it.

But I've also seen some mass produced maille with flat backside and dome rivet and seen some ring & plier kits that are like that. It's inserted from the front and pressed out flat at the back. The ones made historically would have been cones inserted from the back and pressed out on the front like you see in Eriks photos above, where most of the dome is actually material from the ring. But the end result looks similar enough we can't see it without a photo closeup, or well I could spot it but still close enough for most maille enthusiasts.

But where to buy these I don't know. I was hoping all dome rivet mailles from suppliers like say GDFB was like that nowdays. But you guys are saying they're not? Not even the premium Roman maille they sell? I was actually planning on buying one of those in the near future since it's taking way too long for me to make the Gjermundbu and I want a new riveted haubergon to practice and look nice in before retirement age. LOL.
But I haven't seen what they look like from the backside. Is it a disapointment? I mean the current version with the square section solid rings and 6 mm Diameter 1 mm thick wire round rings.

Anyone got one of those recently and have some photos of the back?

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
View user's profile Send private message
S. Sebok





Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Tue 16 Oct, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually what I meant by flat was the rivets didn't stick out in the back like how they do on modern indian made maille. Thats one thing I cant really stand about indian made maille, the rivets stick out rather than are peened. That also makes the maille rather inferior in quality. Wedge riveted maille even when made by indian companies doesn't seem to have the issues with the rivets sticking out on both ends as they only stick out on one end. Now that i've seen the maille in person from both the front and back I regret my previous purchases.
I would like to know where to find this maille that has the peened over inside as well because I want to exchange my hauberk for it. If not i'll just get regular wedge riveted cause having a smooth inside is at least more period than having the ends of the rivets stick out on the inside. It's better than getting cut up and losing my new 300 dollar custom gambeson to maille with shoddy peening.
Long story short i'd say indian wedge riveted maille is closer to actual wedge riveted maille than modern indian dome riveted maille is to actual dome riveted maille. Maybe I will save some money and buy a hauberk off of Erik D Schmid now that I've been spoiled by his maille. My coif isnt dome riveted it's wedge riveted round rings though some rings are however flat and I believe it's 7MM, hard to find a maille hauberk that will match that but my main reasoning is more of a practicality reason rather than aesthetics. I don't want maille thats going to cut me and be rough to the touch and cut me and my gambeson while I put it on.
View user's profile Send private message
Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about round ring wedge riveted,, any indian maille made like that today?
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
View user's profile Send private message
S. Sebok





Joined: 13 Jan 2011
Likes: 9 pages

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct, 2012 4:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I never ever saw it available anywhere. On this site here http://www.snexports.com/chainmaille-armour-detail.html
It shows all the available maille types that indian makers export and I don't see any round ring wedge riveted maille there. Guess the coif I got is the only example I have ever seen.
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,184

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct, 2012 5:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

S. Sebok wrote:
I never ever saw it available anywhere. On this site here http://www.snexports.com/chainmaille-armour-detail.html
It shows all the available maille types that indian makers export.


Thanks for this. I've added the link to the "Riveted does not equal historical" thread.
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=19189
View user's profile Send private message
Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So this explains why some viiking re-enactors chose flat ring weege rivet maille even though the finds only show round ring. At least you get maille that's put together historically although it's considered to be from later age. Makes me think I should do the same. Or possibly one could buy pre made rings and rivet them differently...
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,184

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct, 2012 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
At least you get maille that's put together historically.

No you don't. You just get cheap Indian mail that doesn't rip your aketon to pieces.
View user's profile Send private message
Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct, 2012 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Then I guess I'll go back to hand making one again.

*SIGH* These tiny rings I make are a bother. I could make larger links but that's not much of a challenge just still a bit much time consuming and I don't have much spare time nowdays (but la fair bit of money to spend).

Dan, you think the indians will catch on eventually or is it a lost cause?

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
View user's profile Send private message
Robin Smith




Location: Louisiana
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Likes: 4 pages
Reading list: 17 books

Posts: 746

PostPosted: Wed 17 Oct, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Johan Gemvik wrote:
At least you get maille that's put together historically.

No you don't. You just get cheap Indian mail that doesn't rip your aketon to pieces.

Right... Exactly. We know its not historical, but neither is the dome rivets. And atleast with wedge, its not destroying the under garment.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Dome riveted maille vs wedge riveted.
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum