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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Sep, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: German Longsword c. 1600         Reply with quote

This slender and elegant German longsword will be another on-going project, running parallel with the Type XVa project. Except by the contours of the blade, I'm also fascinated by its guard, comprising well-balanced combination of long quillons, finger-rings and forward side-rings.

The source for the project is this one:
http://www.zornhau.de/wordpress/wp-content/ga...-gross.jpg

and its data-sheet:
http://www.zornhau.de/wordpress/wp-content/up...tZEF08.pdf

found again at the page of the Zornhau - Thanks again, guys! You really do an amazing work!

This is the blank of the future blade


after being cut from leaf-spring steel sheet. What followed was several hours of grinding, until reaching desired tapering.

"Lost in grinding" Laughing Out Loud


Checking the thickness


Almost finished Happy


And the blade after grinding


At this point, I reached the desired thickness alongside the blade and was ready to continue with the profile. But before that, I want to show you another photo, which gives better idea for the dimensions of the weapon - just bear in mind that the tang is temporary a little bit longer (approx. with 2 - 3 inches)


"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Last edited by Boris Bedrosov on Sun 30 Sep, 2012 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Sep, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The profile-making also includes a lot of grinding, but at least - without boring measurements.

The tip of the sword


is ready, soon followed by more.
Just before the last foot, I stopped grinding for awhile and traced the contours of the fuller:


Soon after, the whole blade was "profiled" and it got its first, rough pass on the belt-grinder:


And the result - the dark areas representing some dents, which will be removed during the main sanding:


Here is the difference between the two swords. As you see, at this point the fuller of the longsword is still not made, while on the Type XVa it was made before the rough sanding. Honestly, I'm not sure which procedure is better - both have their own advantages.

The fullers ( combined photo on both sides)


after the initial grind,

and the blade after the fullers were finished with the Dremel tool:


The next step is, of course, the heat-treatment.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Lukas MG
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PostPosted: Sat 06 Oct, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking great!!!
Did you make the fullers solely with the dremel?
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Loring Palleske




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PostPosted: Sat 06 Oct, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting that you wear a mask but no eye protection!

Blade looks great so far though...
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Oct, 2012 11:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fantastic stuff Boris. Another thread of yours I'll be watching closely.

That might be how I will make my next sword and I will likely come to you for questions when that happens.

Looking very promising.

Cheers,

J
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Scott Hanson




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PostPosted: Sun 07 Oct, 2012 12:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Love the original, and the work you've done so far. Really looking forward to seeing the finished product.
Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another"

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Kevin Coleman M.




PostPosted: Sun 07 Oct, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is very interesting. Can you tell me more about the creation of the fullers? I'm working on a stock removal project, myself, and would welcome any input I could get.
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Tue 09 Oct, 2012 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The creation of the fullers is a multi-step procedure:

1. With an angle-grinder and 1 mm cutting disc I follow the central line of the fuller. Here I work at very low speed of the grinder and my purpose is just to mark the center line.
2. With standard (3 mm) cutting disc I make the initial cut wider and deeper. This is the moment when using the probe of the caliper, I cut at the desired depth of the future fuller.
3. Another change of the disc - this time for grinding (as on the pictures above) and now I remove as much steel as I can - from center line to both sides.
And at this point the rough work is done.
Now I take my Dremel tool. The set I use is the rotary tool itself with flexible shaft (#225-01 at their inventory), 1/2" sanding drum (#407) with 1/2" 60-grit sanding band (#408) or 1/4" sanding drum (#430) with 1/4" 60-grit sanding band (#431)

4. First I begin with 1/2" sanding drum/band. I work carefully along the fuller, trying to sand at the right - closer to the right contour, alongside the direction of the sanding (I do this, because these drums and flapwheels also have the tendency to cut well and clear at the right, but to "sleek" the metal at their left). After that I change the direction, sanding again at the right.
This is the most important (on my opinion) step, but I'm not sure if I managed to explain correctly how I do it.
5. When the fuller becomes too narrow for the 1/2" drum/band, I change them with 1/4" ones.
6. If the fuller is broad but shallow (as at the Type XII sword for example) I don't use the Dremel at all. Instead, I work with sanding flapwheels, attached to my hand-drill. As mentioned, they also "sleek" the steel at the left.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Kevin Coleman M.




PostPosted: Wed 31 Oct, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is incredibly helpful, thank you. Did you create the fullers after doing the distal taper and other shaping of the blade? It seems to only make logical sense to me that the fullers would come afterward, but I wanted to be sure.
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Kevin R




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PostPosted: Thu 01 Nov, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This was done with freaking angle grinder?! Wow. Do you do your own heat treat or do you send it out for that?
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2012 7:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Answers in the order of their asking:

Kevin Coleman M. wrote:
This is incredibly helpful, thank you. Did you create the fullers after doing the distal taper and other shaping of the blade? It seems to only make logical sense to me that the fullers would come afterward, but I wanted to be sure.


Yes, you are absolutely right.
I make the fullers (not only these particularly, but all) after doing the distal taper and the profile - diamond in this case.
I've never tried reverse procedure, I've always been considering it wrong.


Kevin R wrote:
This was done with freaking angle grinder?! Wow. Do you do your own heat treat or do you send it out for that?


I know there are more ways to do this - file Laughing Out Loud or CNC milling machine (my dream), but just bear in mind, that although noisy and dangerous, the work with the angle grinder is quick enough. All shaping of the blade (distal taper and profile) took me about eight - eight-and-a-half hours, of which approx. one-third was measuring of the thickness with the caliper.
Unfortunately, I don't have an equipment for the heat-treatment.
In case of short blades (knives, daggers) the heat-treatment is made by a friend of mine, who is a knife-smith, this happens in my home-town and is relatively quick; while in the case of long blades I send them out of town to guys who have the equipment and the experience with long items. Unfortunately, they heat-treat long items relatively rare, so if the project is not urgent, I have to wait for a while until they gather enough details for work. If the project is urgent, they can do the heat-treatment only for me, but then the price is higher.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Kevin Coleman M.




PostPosted: Fri 02 Nov, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, you are absolutely right.
I make the fullers (not only these particularly, but all) after doing the distal taper and the profile - diamond in this case.
I've never tried reverse procedure, I've always been considering it wrong.


Does this effect the distal taper, at all? If the sword is getting thinner as it nears the tip, I don't imagine the fuller can be the same depth throughout it's length, unless it's very shallow. It also seems as though either side of the fuller would cease to be parallel.
In your photos, it looks as though you've marked out where you want your fullers for later grinding, and are beveling to that line. Is this correct?
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Joe Fults




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PostPosted: Sat 03 Nov, 2012 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Interesting to watch your progress. Thanks for sharing with us.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it"
-Marcus Aurelius

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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Nov, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kevin Coleman M. wrote:
Does this effect the distal taper, at all? If the sword is getting thinner as it nears the tip, I don't imagine the fuller can be the same depth throughout it's length, unless it's very shallow. It also seems as though either side of the fuller would cease to be parallel.


BTW, the order you make the fullers depends on the particular blade profile. In any case the distal taper is the first you make, but when you make the fuller (before or after the profile) could be different.

For example, here on this longsword the taper was first, followed by the profile on its two-thirds, the fuller and finally - the profile on the last third (where is the fuller). In this way, I didn't corrupt the thickness of the blade at the section of the fuller - the thickness remains as it was desired. But when I worked on my other project http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27016 I made the stupid mistake - because of a hurry - to finish all profile and then to cut the fuller. As a result now the blade is slightly thinner than it has to - it just misses the tiny sections over and under the red lines.



It's not big difference - about 6.8 mm instead of approx. 7.1 at the guard, but this still irritates me, while spoils the quality of the replica.
So my idea was that in a case of a diamond blade, you need to make the fuller before the profile; if the blade is lenticular or hexagonal then you could finish all grinding before working on the fuller.
About the depth of the fuller I share the same opinion as yours - their depth lessens in the length. Why - I don't know - I just feel this is the correct way.
So, here for this longsword, having data about the depth only at the guard (it is the phrase "Hohlkehlen Tiefe" at the data-sheet - 0.13 cm or 1.3 mm), I re-calculated it for all the length of the fuller - having the same thoughts in mind as yours - not exactly sure, but at the end it was 0.8 - 0.9 mm or so.


Kevin Coleman M. wrote:
In your photos, it looks as though you've marked out where you want your fullers for later grinding, and are beveling to that line. Is this correct?


Absolutely.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury


Last edited by Boris Bedrosov on Tue 06 Nov, 2012 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kevin Coleman M.




PostPosted: Sat 03 Nov, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That makes good sense to me. Out of curiosity, if you had your blank, and cut the fuller into it at a consistent depth before grinding the distal taper, would you not create the thickness you desired, as well as naturally shallow the fuller as the blank loses metal tapering towards the tip? At that point, you could focus entirely on creating the cross section you want, no? Looking at some historic examples, I see that my notions of either side of the fuller running parallel is not entirely accurate. While it seems to be the case in some instances, about as many seem convergent. All of that suggests to me that it is possible to cut the fullers first, and everything else will follow.

I'm working on a type XIV blade, and while I understand them to be largely lenticular, I've read that some have a perceptible central rib to strengthen them for thrusting. So, while not truly a diamond shape, it seems to be progressing towards that cross section. I should also note that this is my first project with stock removal, so I hope you don't mind me picking your brain.
As always, thank you very much
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Kevin Coleman M.




PostPosted: Sat 03 Nov, 2012 4:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Before I forget, this is a link to the project. It is still in its infancy, but you can see the blade shape.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Sun 04 Nov, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kevin Coleman M. wrote:
.... I should also note that this is my first project with stock removal, so I hope you don't mind me picking your brain......


Of course not!
This forum is a great place to share knowledge, information and views. I'm glad to communicate here with people from different parts of the world who share the same interests as mine.

I've also have considered similar ideas of creating the fullers first, but on my opinion this will work well only in case when the distal taper of the blade is linear. Then you'll get fullers with straight lines. In other cases - concave (or if you like - accelerating) and convex taper these lines will not be straight, but .... I don't know - the result depends on the particular taper.
I know this is a matter of theory of stereometry (and of cone/conoid in particularly), but if you had clay and a knife at home, then you could make a simple experiment. Make a cone with the clay, then cut it with a straight line (which resembles the linear taper) through its top - then you'll see that the contours are straight lines. If you cut it in other way (concave or convex - doesn't matter) these contours are not straight. What they are depends on too many factors.
With all these I don't want to say that this way is impossible or incorrect. I just want to say that if I cut the fuller first I wouldn't know what the result be after. It could be OK - just what I want, but it also might need to be re-worked.

Thanks for sharing your Type XIV.
I, personally, have mixed opinion on this blade.Purely aesthetically, I don't like it - it seems cumbersome and clumsy to me, but in several occasions when I've worked with the sword of my fellow re-enactor, I've always been pleased by its agility - as an instrument of war the XIV is a good choice.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Kevin Coleman M.




PostPosted: Sun 04 Nov, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for your kindness and input!

I had failed to consider a distal taper that was not linear, actually. As it goes, I had rather thought I might slow the taper as it proceeds past the end of the fuller and towards the point, if only because with it would lend strength to a thrust. I think the agility of an XIV would be increased by a heavier pommel, if I'm not terribly mistaken. It just seems it would be easier to move with the weight nearer the hand. I have Valiant Armoury's Hedemark, and while it's a totally different blade, I can say that it is anything but nimble. I would hope that a more acute point would solve some of that.

Are there any particular benefits to an accelerating, convex or concave taper over a straight line?
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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Tue 06 Nov, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As you know, the taper strongly depends on the particular type of sword.
If we talk about benefits - there are benefits. Some tapers provide rigidity, other - mass (needed for powerful cut), third (accelerating) - are intended to reduce the mass. All these are always combined with certain cross-section.

As I don't consider myself an expert, I would like to recommend you this thread about the distal taper

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=27262

and of course this

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...stal+taper

spotlight topic, which deals with many other characteristics of the sword.
And if you have time, just follow this link (return to the top of the page)

http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showt...ntry223115

or another spotlight here http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=26327 where the previous link is take from

where you could find some extremely interesting lectures. In two of them Mr. Peter Johnsson (my greatest respect!) speaks about many, many, many important issues, all of which combined make the steel a real, worthy sword.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

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Boris Bedrosov
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PostPosted: Fri 09 Nov, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The pommel of the longsword was made several days ago by turning on a lathe.









There are some minor differences from the original, the most significant of which is the transition from conoid to spheroid parts. In the original sword this is more smooth, without sharp turns.
But this will be re-worked later.

"Everyone who has the right to wear a long sword, has to remember that his sword is his soul,
and he has to separate from it when he separates from his life"
Tokugawa Ieyasu

Find my works on Facebook:
Boris Bedrosov's Armoury
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