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Clifford Rogers





Joined: 11 Mar 2012

Posts: 40

PostPosted: Tue 11 Sep, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject: Agincourt Archer Helmet         Reply with quote

Can anyone suggest a near-contemporary image with a credible helmet for a 1415 English archer? As two points of bracketing reference, Florence's 1369 code called for archers to have "iron headpieces," while a 1440 English indenture called for archers to have "salades".

I'm thinking for 1415 an open-faced bascinet would be likely (recognizing that per Waurin many would not have had metal helmets at all)-- not dissimilar from the ones in the Beauchamp pageant, though that's 70 yrs later. If that seems reasonable, can anyone point me to a museum piece that would match that?

Thanks
Cliff

Clifford J. Rogers
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Sep, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cliff

If you look at a bunch of images in manuscripts in this era you see bascinets of many shapes and sizes including the short round top ones with a maille coif under or fitted maille drape attached.



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Royal 20 C.VII ca.1400-1410

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Burney 257 ca.1405

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Sloane 2433 ca.1410 - 1420

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Chroniques ca.1410

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Chroniques ca.1410

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Chroniques ca.1410

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Burney 257 ca.1405 [ Download ]

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Burney 257 ca.1405 [ Download ]

James Barker
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

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PostPosted: Tue 11 Sep, 2012 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What's the story of the angry ladies in the second picture?
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Clifford Rogers





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PostPosted: Tue 11 Sep, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Kurt. Love those images from KB 72A25!

Cliff

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James Barker




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PostPosted: Wed 12 Sep, 2012 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kurt Scholz wrote:
What's the story of the angry ladies in the second picture?


I do not have any detailed information on this page but this Manuscript is a compendium and summary of Thebaid and Achilleid

About this story:

Statius published his Thebaid in the last decade of the first century. This epic recounting the struggle between the two sons of Oedipus for the kingship of Thebes is his masterpiece, a stirring exploration of the passions of civil war. The extant portion of his unfinished Achilleid is strikingly different in tone: this second epic begins as a charming account of Achilles’ life.

Statius was raised in the Greek cultural milieu of the Bay of Naples, and his Greek literary education is reflected in his poetry. The political realities of Rome in the first century are also evident in the Thebaid, in representations of authoritarian power and the drive for domination.

James Barker
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Wed 12 Sep, 2012 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you are finding period sources to placate a reenactment group, and haven't found the helmet itself you are going to buy, GDFB sells a few helmet that would match the styles depicted in James' photos.
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB03...ret+Helmet
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB25...sile+Steel
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB04...net+Helmet
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB27...l+Aventail
(round top, early bascinet and their cheapest bascinet and aventail combo.)

The Czechs can probably make one more accurate, but for the price these are good for those looking to build up their hard kit.
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Clifford Rogers





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PostPosted: Wed 12 Sep, 2012 7:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Clifford Rogers wrote:
Thanks Kurt. Love those images from KB 72A25!

Cliff


Er, I meant "thanks James."

Cliff

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Kurt Scholz





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PostPosted: Wed 12 Sep, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Clifford Rogers wrote:
Clifford Rogers wrote:
Thanks Kurt. Love those images from KB 72A25!

Cliff


Er, I meant "thanks James."

Cliff


OK, I was really embarrassed.
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I should also note I only pulled out images of Archers, there are many images of men on foot wearing many of the same helmets but also helmets made of many parts, scales, etc. Really junky looking stuff.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While James is correct that most miniatures show bascinets in use, the old adage of archers not wearing brimmed chapel de fer or kettle hats because the brim interferes in drawing is not born out in miniatures.

Here's a couple of early 15th century Grand Chroniques de France images showing archers using both styles of headpiece.
http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/savima...5608-p.jpg
http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/savima...5609-p.jpg

And from a 1412-1414 copy of Froissart:
http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/savima...5617-p.jpg

These are the rare exceptions to the bascinet.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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James Barker




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart

What is interesting to note is that in many manuscripts that are English (War of the Roses, the ones from this era are not military in nature) show only sallads and other none brim hats on the English side, while the French have crossbow men and some longbow men in kettles; examples like the Beauchamp Chronicles.

James Barker
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Indeed. The Grand Chroniques example is French, and only shows them drawing the longbow to the chest, not the face.
It makes one wonder if the technique allows the equipment, or if the equipment dictates the technique.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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James Barker




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I once tried drawing yo my ear with a longbow in a kettle hat, the brim totally got in the way.
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Lars Persson




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello everyone!

I´m new here and this is my first post.

I have friends that use brimmed helmets and they say it´s just something you get used to.
It is save to asume that it will work best with a long "mediveal" draw of 30-32 inches.


P.S Sorry if I butcher the English language, it has been some years since school.


//Lars[/img]



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kettel-1.jpg

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Martin Wallgren




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's me with the big bow closest to the wall. Black and red on linnen. And a kettlehat with a brim. And oh, just what Lars said!
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Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lars Persson wrote:
Hello everyone!

I´m new here and this is my first post.

I have friends that use brimmed helmets and they say it´s just something you get used to.
It is save to asume that it will work best with a long "mediveal" draw of 30-32 inches.


P.S Sorry if I butcher the English language, it has been some years since school.


//Lars[/img]


There goes the neighbourhood Razz

Hi Lars, good to have you here.
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Lars Persson




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Sep, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Glennan:-)
Good to be here. As there seem to be a lot to learn here, I´m glad I found the place.
Wonder why no one told me about it....
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Sep, 2012 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a 32 inch draw to the ear, but I am 6'3" with ape arms.

Here I am interpreting at Jamestown in March doing 1411


James Barker
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Harry Marinakis




PostPosted: Mon 16 Feb, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Barker wrote:
What is interesting to note is that in many manuscripts that are English .... show only sallads and other none brim hats on the English side...


Do you have the names of these manuscripts?
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