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Mike West




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: French 19th Century Naval Boarding Cutlass replica         Reply with quote

International Military Antiques ( www.ima-ua.com ) is selling these on amazon.com
( http://www.amazon.com/French-Century-Boarding...B00655D0LA ),
ebay
( http://www.ebay.com/itm/300640060550?ssPageNa...1438.l2649 )

and, their own website. They are described as exact replicas made during the 1980s for French Naval history commemorations.

Here is a site that describes the originals ( http://www.thepirateslair.com/9-antique-french-naval-cutlass.html )

Does anyone have any experience with these replicas? If you have handled an original, or own one, how do they compare?

I purchased one and, have only Del Tin swords to compare it to, and think it to be a nice replica. It's under 3lbs and, feels heavy, but maneuverable with the elbow, if not the wrist. The blade came dull, but the point is acute. The blade is not stainless and, has some flex.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,831

PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Mike

I have seen this and other replicas on the IMA site and this is one that may surface as original, they are that good looking at a difference. I have briefly handled an original and another that was scaled a bit larger than the French model.(that one humungously wider in the blade). I would be interested in an accurate weight, if you can manage to provide that but also some thicknesses of the blade both at the guard and then towards the point (spine thicknesses). One thing that stands out between this and the originals is the guard/cup thickness. For pictures, it looks like they did a decent job with the distal properties but I would be interested in more specifics.

http://www.ima-usa.com/french-19th-century-na...used.html.

There are a good number of originals on Ebay, for comparison and the IMA is scary in the sense that some may be easily fooled if being listed fraudulently. There are other details I will not mention that identify these as reproductions but there are times we may be making it too easy for the fakers to take advantage.

The Welsh sword is another that comes quite close visually but side by side show their differences. All in all, they look like a fun piece at a great price.

Cheers

GC
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Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Aren't these just the usual Indian-made replicas that have been on sale for years, with the fake Klingenthal marks and anchor on the blade. Windlass used to make them, amongst others. You can pick them up for around $75 on the continent:

http://www.armae.com/contemporain/14xixxxsieclecadre.htm

(about halfway down the 'sabres & epees' section)

Julian



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Mike West




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 10:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julian Reynolds wrote:
Aren't these just the usual Indian-made replicas that have been on sale for years, with the fake Klingenthal marks and anchor on the blade. Windlass used to make them, amongst others. You can pick them up for around $75 on the continent:

http://www.armae.com/contemporain/14xixxxsieclecadre.htm

(about halfway down the 'sabres & epees' section)

Julian


I see two noticeable differences between what I've bought and, the replica on the page. The grip on the link is nearly in line with the blade, whereas the one I own has a noticeable drop downward. Also, the tongue-like protrusion that comes out of the back of the hilt and, rises up a bit toward the back of the blade has smooth edges in the photo, while mine has a rounded serration-like design.
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Mike West




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 11:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Hi Mike

I have seen this and other replicas on the IMA site and this is one that may surface as original, they are that good looking at a difference. I have briefly handled an original and another that was scaled a bit larger than the French model.(that one humungously wider in the blade). I would be interested in an accurate weight, if you can manage to provide that but also some thicknesses of the blade both at the guard and then towards the point (spine thicknesses). One thing that stands out between this and the originals is the guard/cup thickness. For pictures, it looks like they did a decent job with the distal properties but I would be interested in more specifics.

http://www.ima-usa.com/french-19th-century-na...used.html.

There are a good number of originals on Ebay, for comparison and the IMA is scary in the sense that some may be easily fooled if being listed fraudulently. There are other details I will not mention that identify these as reproductions but there are times we may be making it too easy for the fakers to take advantage.

The Welsh sword is another that comes quite close visually but side by side show their differences. All in all, they look like a fun piece at a great price.

Cheers

GC




It weighs in at 2 lbs, 13.5 ounces. The width at the back of the blade is about 5/16 or 6/16 thick. It tapers gradually down to18.75 inches of the length, where it's about 1/8" wide, then tapers drastically maybe to 1/32" wide, 1 inch to the end of the point. Hope that makes sense.

The top of the cup is about 2/16" thick, but the hand guard is thinner. It's tough to accurately measure because the sides are flared outward.
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Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2012 2:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"I see two noticeable differences between what I've bought and, the replica on the page. The grip on the link is nearly in line with the blade, whereas the one I own has a noticeable drop downward. Also, the tongue-like protrusion that comes out of the back of the hilt and, rises up a bit toward the back of the blade has smooth edges in the photo, while mine has a rounded serration-like design."

Mike, the differences are because I posted an 1833 pattern, yours is the earlier 1801 pattern. You'll find both on the replica market, but just because it says Klingenthal on the spine of the blade doesn't mean it was made there......(the factory there closed in 1962 - as far as I am aware, the only factory in France still making swords is Chevalier d'Auvergne).

That's not to say that it (and it's Indian cousins) are not good swords. However, some of the really low priced replicas are not heat treated or tempered (they just grind them out of mild steel), so caveat emptor. It sounds like you have a good one.

Julian
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Mike West




Location: North Carolina
Joined: 06 Dec 2003
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julian Reynolds wrote:
"I see two noticeable differences between what I've bought and, the replica on the page. The grip on the link is nearly in line with the blade, whereas the one I own has a noticeable drop downward. Also, the tongue-like protrusion that comes out of the back of the hilt and, rises up a bit toward the back of the blade has smooth edges in the photo, while mine has a rounded serration-like design."

Mike, the differences are because I posted an 1833 pattern, yours is the earlier 1801 pattern. You'll find both on the replica market, but just because it says Klingenthal on the spine of the blade doesn't mean it was made there......(the factory there closed in 1962 - as far as I am aware, the only factory in France still making swords is Chevalier d'Auvergne).

That's not to say that it (and it's Indian cousins) are not good swords. However, some of the really low priced replicas are not heat treated or tempered (they just grind them out of mild steel), so caveat emptor. It sounds like you have a good one.

Julian



Thanks. They don't say where it's made. How would one tell if the blade wasn't heat treated? Would it bend and, stay bent, or does heat treating provide flex and, return to the blade? How is the quality of the swords from the site you posted that photo from? Many of their swords look like those on military heritage.
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Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You'll know if a sword hasn't been properly heat treated because it will take a set if you bend it just a few inches out of true (ie. it will kink). Lots of the cheaper Indian and Chinese made swords (some advertised as 'battle-ready' or 'made from EN45' etc.) simply aren't treated (or very poorly treated at best). It's not such an issue if it's semi sharp and built like a crowbar, because most customers are never likely to use it, just hang it on a wall or parade around with it in costume!

There are not a million versions of these types of 'Napoleonic' era swords. They all come from India, from a couple of makers. The similarities between Military Heritage and Armae (and a dozen other retailers in Europe and the States) is simply because they are all peddling the same products.

As mentioned above, the only factory making Napoleonic swords in Europe is Chevalier d'Auvergne. Their products are not cheap, but the quality of their blades is excellent, although they have their own quirks, too. (please note, I used the term 'factory' - there are many independent makers in Europe who will make you Napoleonic era swords).

Julian
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 683

PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My opinion: I REALLY dislike replica's of more or less recent swords with fake markings. Such swords may easily fool a beginning collector, or if some dishonest person would provide the sword with a fake patina, also some collectors that are a bit more experienced.

Julian Reynolds wrote:
the only factory in France still making swords is Chevalier d'Auvergne
I have the idea that at least some of the blades / swords from Chevalier d'Auvergne are actually made by WKC. Or perhaps vice-versa, but I don't think so...
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Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul,

One of the biggest culprits for fake-aging swords is World Wide Arms, here in England. Most of their swords are made in India (by the usual suspects) but they age them up to make them look like originals, and are very clever with their adverts, mixing original antiques with the aged repro swords. They don't make any false claims, of course.

As for Chevalier d'Auvergne, they do say they make everything themselves. I have seen their sword blades etc. being retailed by other companies.

Julian
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