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Karl Knisley




PostPosted: Fri 17 Aug, 2012 11:58 am    Post subject: When did messers go out of style         Reply with quote

Hello
I was wondering how long, messers,(like Albions Soldat) stayed around as fighting weapons.I know they were around as hunting swords well into the 19th century. But would you have found them say...on a 18th century pirate ship.Or as a musketeers side arm?
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Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 17 Aug, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I doubt you would see them outside of Germany in the 18th century. For the most part, messers are a 15th-17th century phenomenon, as far as I know. They seem to have held on longer in parts of central Europe, but would be a great rarity in the hands of a French, Spanish or English musketeer or pirate.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Fri 17 Aug, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.warrelics.eu/forum/imperial-german...5-a-60390/



Cheers

GC
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Romulus Stoica




Location: Hunedoara, Transylvania, Romania
Joined: 26 Oct 2006

Posts: 124

PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Messers never dissapear, they just got smaller and became the hunting knives used even today Wink ...
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Ryan S.





Joined: 04 May 2012

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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 4:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

isn't messer just German for knife?
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 5:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Exactly. Messer is the general German word for every kind of knife. It ranges from to .

The introduction of the renown "Kriegsmessers" in Germany had much to do with duelling and laws explicitly defining and banning swords as an intended countermeasure. You can find such a law in most German municipalities of that time.
It's the same with reiter, both messer and reiter are general German terms for a single edged blade tool and a human on a horse that took a specific meaning outside Germany due to timely limited great influence of a connected concept.
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ryan S. wrote:
isn't messer just German for knife?

Yes but the OP is obviously referring the to grossemesser/langesmesser/kriegsmessers type weapons.

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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 10:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For the renown pirate weapon, the cutlass, the German word is "Entermesser". It was a simple single edged weapon that was part of another fashion cycle. Perhaps you remember the recent comeback of leggings for women. Well, the latest wave were not just taken out of mum's old wardrobe.
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

interestingly to reference a nation on the othersideof the landmass of eurasia. as im sure some of you know, the DAO means knife and also formes a rangeof mostly single edged weapons of multiple shapes and sizes

and yea id say falchions and messers became hunting swords and combat/ survival knives, cutlasses etc

i remember that the cutlass evolved out of a kind of machete after all.
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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Posts: 683

PostPosted: Mon 20 Aug, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kurt Scholz wrote:
Perhaps you remember the recent comeback of leggings for women. Well, the latest wave were not just taken out of mum's old wardrobe.
That's a good point, I think.

In the present reproduction market, the Messer is a fairly specific weapon but I'm still not sure how the Messer is related to, for instance, the Bauernwehr and related weapons and where a 15th - 16th century German would draw the line, if at all. There is a lot of variation within the theme and I would really like to see someone making a proper study of them and publish them in book form.

Also, you have 17th - 18th century hunting weapons that look like Albion's Soldat (as an example) in terms of blade profile etc. But still are apparently a different weapon. For instance, many (most?) of them lack the Nagel which some consider the mark of a "true" Messer.

If you consider these 18th C. hunting hangers as "true" Messers, then I don't see why they could not have been used by some pirate.
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Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 20 Aug, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Exactly, Paul. I took Karls question to be specifically about the class of weapons defined by a riveted scale grip, a single edged blade and a nagel, " like the Albion Soldat." It is pretty obvious that knives continue to be used to the present day, so I doubt that that was what his question was about.
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