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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: New Custom Viking Scabbard for Ollin Lough Gur         Reply with quote

I'd like to share with everyone a piece I recently completed for fellow forum member Tim Lison. Tim was great to work with and let me have almost complete control of the artistic direction. He showed me the style of scabbard he liked and let me take it from there. I'm very happy with the results and personally think it's my best work to date.
The tooled decoration is made up of all orignal designs, though based heavily on Borre artwork.
Comments and questions are welcome.
Thanks,
Dan









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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

it really is beautiful. I love the use of wood on the scabbard for the suspension...
http://www.bigrockforge.com
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William Swiger




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent scabbard. Detail is most impressive.
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Matthew Bunker




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excellent carving work, really really nicely done.

However, as you said that comments and questions are welcome (and speaking as one scabbard maker to another)....

Why that slider/bridge? In fact why ANY slider? Tim's choice?
Not only does that style of suspension not need one (and, from what we know from the surviving examples, didn't utilise one) but North West European scabbards of that period didn't use surface mounted bridges at all.

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Brian K.
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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2012 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Bunker wrote:
Excellent carving work, really really nicely done.

However, as you said that comments and questions are welcome (and speaking as one scabbard maker to another)....

Why that slider/bridge? In fact why ANY slider? Tim's choice?
Not only does that style of suspension not need one (and, from what we know from the surviving examples, didn't utilise one) but North West European scabbards of that period didn't use surface mounted bridges at all.


Seems to me the strap bridge is being utilized and is functioning here. Not only is it a bridge over the strap and allowing the strap to 'slide', it is also holding the strap in positon exactly like a baldric would.

In my opinion a perfectly plausible suspension. A lack of evidence of existance doesn't mean a lack of existance.

Brian Kunz
www.dbkcustomswords.com
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Nils Anderssen




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First: That is a nicely executed scabbard. I especially like that it is slim and therefore close to actual findings (the wooden "planks" could be 2 mm thick :P). Where did you get the belt buckle and strap end?

Second: The concept of the bridge/slider is well documented from viking age finds from the same period as the sword (9th - early 10th century).

Usually you will find dents/marks in skin that probably have been thrown away and replaced due to ware and tare. From the examples I have seen the bride/slider is placed underneath the skin with one cut on either side to allow the belt to go through it. You can see an example from Dublin dated 950 - 970 underneath:



These can have different kinds of shapes, but I do not have any other pictures at the moment. I will try to find some more in a couple of days...

I have used a scabbard with a bridge for the last 8 years and it has gone through a lot of use and abuse and it is turning out to be a quite sturdy construciton. Matthew, you are right that you don't need one for this type of scabbard, but if you look at illustrations of scabbards there are many variations... many, so I guess this solution is plausible. I am normally not a fan of the argument that "we have not found it, but it could have existed" since it opens for a lot of unhistorical things and mindless interpretations, but in this case I guess it is ok since the scabbard is based on principles from actual finds...
Other (slightly earlier) examples of scabbards can be seen underneath:



For more examples on scabbards I can highly recommend Scabbards and Sheaths from Viking and Medieval Dublin by Esther Cameron.
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Zach Luna




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Aug, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, Dan, she's beautiful! Eek!
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Matthew Bunker




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 12:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian K. wrote:


In my opinion a perfectly plausible suspension. A lack of evidence of existance doesn't mean a lack of existance.


Plausible yes, but one for which there's no evidence. We have surviving examples of scabbards with this overall form of suspension system; externally mounted slides don't feature in them.

My question should not be percieved as being a criticism of the execution, which is excellent but it genuinely puzzles me when people go to great lengths to ensure the historical accuracy of a weapon based on archaeological examples and then don't go to the same lengths with the scabbards.
For me, LENEL is a fine as a fallback position when you have no evidence of a period solution but isn't when you have. Why make stuff up if you don't have to?

But then I'm more interested in scabbards than I am swords.

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Brian K.
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ultimately it always boils down to what the customer wants. Cool
Brian Kunz
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Matthew Bunker




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian K. wrote:
Ultimately it always boils down to what the customer wants. Cool


Veritas.
Wink

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 10:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As the customer, I couldn't be happier with it. Dan did a heck of a job! The leather work is executed beautifully and the scabbard looks great!

Matthew Bunker wrote:
Why make stuff up if you don't have to?


What should it look like Matthew? I'm interested in scabbards too. I actually buy *alot* of them as I no longer want swords without them, and would like to get them right historically. The sources for scabbards seem few and far between to me, but I likely haven't delved as deep as you. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction, or start a thread of your own about it...
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Robin Smith




PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
As the customer, I couldn't be happier with it. Dan did a heck of a job! The leather work is executed beautifully and the scabbard looks great!

Matthew Bunker wrote:
Why make stuff up if you don't have to?


What should it look like Matthew? I'm interested in scabbards too. I actually buy *alot* of them as I no longer want swords without them, and would like to get them right historically. The sources for scabbards seem few and far between to me, but I likely haven't delved as deep as you. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction, or start a thread of your own about it...
I'm not Matt B, but I can answer this one...

The evidence for the period both you and I are most interested in points to sliders being under the leather, with a slit in the leather to allow the baldric to pass through. I'll send you a PDF about Anglo Saxon leatherwork that has a whole chapter about sword cabbards of the 10th C.

Here is a picture showing what the set up looks like and some of the common bridges found in York from the 9th and 10th C.


However, also at this time you have scabbards like the Cronk Moar and Ballateare scabbards. These do not use a strap bridge. You know I have mentioned these two to you before when discussing projects. I believe Matt B has a nice reconstruction of the Cronk Moar.



So while a strap bridge is appropriate for this period, it would generally be UNDER the leather.

That said, I am a big fan of the modern makers strap bridge scabbards. I think they are beautiful works of art and certainly appreciate them for what they are...

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine


Last edited by Robin Smith on Thu 16 Aug, 2012 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's a very beautiful scabbard Dan, great workmanship indeed!

The thread, though drifting from the initial subject, is getting very interesting indeed.

I've noticed there are no articles about historical scabbard design on myArmoury and something tells me some of you here have the knowledge to educate others on the topic of early scabbard designs.

Wanna give it a go? Happy

If that pops up here that works for me too (any way you could share these pdf with the broader community Robin?)
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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks everyone for the kind words.
The discusion concerning strap bridges is very interesting indeed and I would very much like to see it continue.
However, as several posters have mentioned, it is perhaps drifting a bit from the scope of the original thread.
Perhaps we could continue in this thread?
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12131
Thanks,
Dan
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Thu 16 Aug, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very attractive scabbard and I really like the tooling in the leather as well as the whole design and the metal fittings.
You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 17 Aug, 2012 6:26 pm    Post subject: Dag Dan!         Reply with quote

I have been following you for a while now but this is really a standard setter. Really well executed and beautiful work.
David L Smith
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Matthew Bunker




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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Dickinson wrote:

Perhaps we could continue in this thread?
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=12131
Thanks,
Dan


I agree with the need to take the discussion away from the current thread, but not to that old one which is, I believe, the one that has done most to influence some of the very finely made but (to my mind) distinctly fantastical 'Viking' scabbards that I've seen on this forum since Peter posted his sketches.

So, unless someone else does it in the meantime, I'll start a new discussion thread after the weekend.
In the meantime, my friend Russell Scott (senior authenticity officer of 'The Vikings' re-enactment society, who longer allow externally surface mounted bridges on newly constructed post 8th century scabbards) wrote this paper which addresses the construction of the particular form of suspension that Dan has used:-

http://the-vikings.wdfiles.com/local--files/a...0Type%203c

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Dan Dickinson
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PostPosted: Sat 18 Aug, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean and David, thank you very much Blush
Matthew, I would very much disagree about needing to start a different thread. By posting your evidence to the contrary in the same thread, it would serve to correct any misinformation presented earlier rather than having two separate threads with contrasting information.
Just my two cents.
Dan
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Aug, 2012 9:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is just beautiful in every way. Amazing craftsmanship. Really spices up the sword too. Congrats to both of you Dan and Tim.
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