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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
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Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Messers, typical period weight, length and CoG/CoB?         Reply with quote

I've been trying to pick out a training messer for some time, and I am Iooking for advice related to the CoG/B of period messers and their weights. I have only been able to find the stats for reproductions so far.

Here are the training messers I am considering so far (but I am open to suggestions):

Model, CoB/G (inches), Weight (lbs), Blade length (inches)
A&A Messer Trainer, 1.75", 2.50 lbs, 28.50"
Albion Marxbruder, 4.25", 2.06 lbs, 28.50"
Heavy Combat Langmesser, 2.00", 2.50 lbs, 22.75''

While the A&A and Heavy combat have similar balances and weights, they have very different lengths; conversely, while the A&A and Albion have similar lengths they have different weights and very different balances.... Worried

Does anyone have a good idea what a "typical" period messer's stats would be, or know of some good examples of period messers with stats available?

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

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Sjors B




Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands
Joined: 31 Aug 2011

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Mon 13 Aug, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

not so long ago i've been looking into the same thing (see: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight= )
although i don't have any direct evidence on the weight en CoG from period messer, we have allowed ourselves some assumptions based on messer techniques displayed by tallhoffer and leckuchner. we assumed it to be a very light weapon, CoG 1 to 2 inches of the crossguard to give the ability to change the angle of youre movement at high speed.
Eventually (and also based on everyones advise on this forum) we bought the light weighted trainning messer made by Jiri Krondak - www.fabri-armorum.com (light weight version of your heavy combat langmesser).
my own weights only 800 grams, CoG is about two inches from the crossguard and myself, my trainer and several experienced members in our group have been using these for training exercises, drills and light sparring with great satisfaction

regards

member of the langenort school for European martial arts in Nijmegen (NL)
http://www.historicalshows.com/
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Likes: 14 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Mon 13 Aug, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sjors B wrote:
not so long ago i've been looking into the same thing (see: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight= )
although i don't have any direct evidence on the weight en CoG from period messer, we have allowed ourselves some assumptions based on messer techniques displayed by tallhoffer and leckuchner. we assumed it to be a very light weapon, CoG 1 to 2 inches of the crossguard to give the ability to change the angle of youre movement at high speed.
Eventually (and also based on everyones advise on this forum) we bought the light weighted trainning messer made by Jiri Krondak - www.fabri-armorum.com (light weight version of your heavy combat langmesser).
my own weights only 800 grams, CoG is about two inches from the crossguard and myself, my trainer and several experienced members in our group have been using these for training exercises, drills and light sparring with great satisfaction
regards

Sjors, thank you for the input. My biggest concern with the "heavy combat langmesser" is how much shorter it is than the other two, has this been an issue? Is the lighter weight messer you use longer?

I hope to be travelling to a museum with a couple of messers soon, and I plan on taking measurements. I will follow up here.

Also, for anyone interested I posted this same question over on the HEMA Alliance forum and there as been some discussion: http://hemaalliance.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2331

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Nicholas A. Gaese




Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Joined: 06 Aug 2007

Posts: 100

PostPosted: Tue 14 Aug, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good afternoon.

I have never used any of these products, but if you want to compare them to actual weapons, then maybe you should consider also the context that these messers were built for. Also consider that CoB only tells part of the story.

For comparison, the heavy combat and A & A messers share the same weight and balance. the HC could be quite realistic if compared to a real weapon, considering its length. The A & A has a pretty close CoB for its length, and I think its for 2 reasons: first for ease of use in sparring and drills, and second for safety. It's easier to pull your blows with such a close balance. This now leaves us with the Marxbruder, which has more blade mass but is nearly half a pound lighter. I find this would make for a more realistic weapon, as it provides more presence for cuts and binds, while the overall weight makes it very easy to control. I wouldn't be surprised if many real gross messers had similar dynamics.

So thats my conjuncture about the options you gave. All are good options, and Ive heard nothing but praise for A & A's and Albions messers, but if you want one that more closely resembles a sharp, then the marxbruder might be the one for you. Just excercise a bit of caution when sparring, with more presence comes more punch per blow. Some here got their fair share of bruises im sure....



Regards.
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Tjarand Matre




Location: Nøtterøy, Norway
Joined: 19 Sep 2010

Posts: 158

PostPosted: Tue 14 Aug, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have no input on the period-ness of either messer but I have played with the Marxbruder and I own and use almost daily the Fabri Armorum "feder" messer Sjors also refers to (actually I think his messer is the even lighter one, mine is 980g).
Messers were probably a commoners weapon, an effective weapon for people that don't really fence well (and favoured by those that fence well for it's versatility perhaps). In that case the Albion is probably the most realistic weapon due to it's heft and keenness to move forward and cleave things.
For practice and drills where you don't really want to cleave things but train technique, I'd go for the Fabri Armorum messer. It's extremely versatile and very easy to control. Whenever I give it to people who don't fence and let them play with it, they just know how to handle it. It's very intuitive to wield. But stay away from the default heavy version. It's too heavy for most fighters ...
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Sjors B




Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands
Joined: 31 Aug 2011

Posts: 43

PostPosted: Tue 14 Aug, 2012 1:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My messer is 27.5 inch long, with a custom extended grip of 6.7 inch
in fact i find this length far more comfortable then my longer messer (about 39 inch).
the messer i have, however is not the feder line as Tjarand mentioned but the slim blade training design, all based on saving weight.
on fencing with the messer i agree with Tjarand. it actually is no more then an overdevoleped kitchen knife, though advanced techniques do become far more sofisticated. The basics however are down to earth and simple, very much in line with the design of the weapon

member of the langenort school for European martial arts in Nijmegen (NL)
http://www.historicalshows.com/
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