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Bryce Bender




Location: terrebonne,oregon
Joined: 07 Aug 2012

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 2:51 am    Post subject: found sword unknown         Reply with quote

the sword i found is made in germany for the U.S. is 35 1/2" OAL and 37 1/2" in the scabbard


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Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 5:19 am    Post subject: Medical Officers sword         Reply with quote

This is a dress sword for a medical Officer probably late 19th C. I do not have my book to hand but I would think this is pretty accurate.

Best
Craig
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 6:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I used to have a sword very close to this that was clearly a presentation swords given to a retiring officer and engraved with a dedication and his name: Unfortunately sold this sword in the 1980's and I should have kept it because of sentimental value because my dad bought it for me when I was 14 years old and we where vacationing in Florida, Daytona beach.

I also don't remember the officers name and the exact date of the dedication that dated his service as a commander of some unit or other .... given to him by his men.

The hilt style was almost identical to the sword in the pic and the engraving as good or better.

What I do remember is that there was one inscription saying GAR meaning " Grand Army of the Republic " which I was told at the time was a designation from before the Civil War and the dates of the dedication where in the 1850 -1860 period.

The blade in the pic seems to have been sharpened with a secondary bevel while my sword had unsharpened 2mm edges. ( Or it could be just the lighting on a narrow border near the edges ? )

The sharpening may have been done by the first owner, ordered from the maker sharpened or sharpened decades later by an owner of the sword.

The scabbard on this sword is of the same general look but more ornate than on my sword that had only simple bands for the scabbard rings, but overall it could have been made to a very similar pattern.

The black leather handle and wire wrap is near identical to what I remember.

Not sure if I remember correctly but the makers mark identified it as being American made ? ( Could be wrong here ? )

Anyway, this would seem to date this style to at least mid 19th century and probably a style still used today for military parade swords.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,815

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 7:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While the base form does relate the staff & staff corp US regulation pattern of 1860 (and Peterson shows a non regulation medical officer of this type of the earlier years); the sword posted here is indeed later in the 19th or even a good bit later.

For a great overview of the base form, there is an old Man At Arms article from Garigliano that is as useful now as 1979. I have the pdf uploaded but it is also available on the Old Sword site www.oldswords.com
http://files.myopera.com/3sails/files/Swords%...s-v1i6.pdf

A fellow named Virgil Price applied for many patents, many revolving around sword fixtures after the 1860s. One of thos patents (circa 1873) was the method for casting parts directly on scabbards. A trait we see displayed on the sword of this thread. A "Made in Germany" stamp kind of pushes the blade itself to past 1880, as that is when trade agreements were beginning to take effect.

Chat up Tim Graham http://www.swordforum.com/forums/member.php?31260-T-Graham

and George Wheeler http://www.swordforum.com/forums/member.php?29912-George-Wheeler

I would wager it is an M.C. Lilley (in all late name variations) assembly.
http://www.ruble-enterprises.com/lilley.htm

Now, consider that history and Lilley absorbing Ames (who had worked with Virgil Price on sword fittings). With all that in mind, the sword could as easily be made up to the WWII period (the Made In Germany blade). That is when I would defer to Graham,Wheeler and a few more that follow the late American forms to a T.

Cheers

GC
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,815

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 7:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jean

The GAR swords of this form are all post American Civil War.

http://suvcw.org/gar.htm

Cheers

GC
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Hi Jean

The GAR swords of this form are all post American Civil War.

http://suvcw.org/gar.htm

Cheers

GC


Ah, then the person giving me the information at the time was wrong about it being pre-Civil War, but the dates of service on the sword where earlier than the Civil war or overlapped with the early years of the war: Maybe the date where 1850 something to maybe 1862 or later .... memory, and not having the sword is sort of " fallible " !

I imagine then that my sword may have been presented to the person years or decades later than the years of service engraved on the blade ?

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,815

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
Hi Jean

The GAR swords of this form are all post American Civil War.

http://suvcw.org/gar.htm

Cheers

GC


Ah, then the person giving me the information at the time was wrong about it being pre-Civil War, but the dates of service on the sword where earlier than the Civil war or overlapped with the early years of the war: Maybe the date where 1850 something to maybe 1862 or later .... memory, and not having the sword is sort of " fallible " !

I imagine then that my sword may have been presented to the person years or decades later than the years of service engraved on the blade ?


Hi Jean

Yes absolutely many swords were presented with older campaigns. Many of the senior American Civil War officers were veterans of the Mexican War of the 1840s, then on from there.

The list of military associations is quite a long one and the GAR swords fairly common but with a presentation, something a little more special.

Cheers

GC
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Michael Harley




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 12 Apr 2006

Posts: 86

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wouldn't this more likely come from the signal corp. rather than the medical corp. as it has the emblem of the rod of Hermes/Mercury, the messenger of the Gods rather than the rod of Asklepius, the God of healing?


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Information is not knowledge, Knowledge is not wisdom, Wisdom is not truth - Frank Zappa
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,815

PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Harley wrote:
Wouldn't this more likely come from the signal corp. rather than the medical corp. as it has the emblem of the rod of Hermes/Mercury, the messenger of the Gods rather than the rod of Asklepius, the God of healing?


https://www.google.com/search?q=us+army+medical+corp+insignia

https://www.google.com/search?q=us%20army%20medical%20corp%20insignia&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=S-UlUO7VHMKmrAf6oIGYDQ

Edit to add that the wide adoption by the US Amry would also mean a 20th century sword. Wink However used earlier (per notes, see above links)


Cheers

GC
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Bryce Bender




Location: terrebonne,oregon
Joined: 07 Aug 2012

Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug, 2012 4:22 am    Post subject: Re: Medical Officers sword         Reply with quote

Craig Johnson wrote:
This is a dress sword for a medical Officer probably late 19th C. I do not have my book to hand but I would think this is pretty accurate.

Best
Craig


I have to go with your answer and will stick with it thank you for helping Identify this sword.
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