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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov, 2004 8:32 pm    Post subject: Beaver Dam Cutting Party - Pics!         Reply with quote

http://photos.yahoo.com/joustwarrior

Please note that Mattie's Cold Steel Grosse Messer was defeated soundly by a $1.50 pumpkin. Of course, we have never seen pumpkins being cut on a Cold Steel video...

Enjoy!

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Patrick Kelly




Location: Wichita, Kansas
Joined: 17 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

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Posts: 5,685

PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov, 2004 8:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great pics Lloyd!

I take it that you managed to raise enough to hang onto the Duke? That's great!

Those are painful pics of the CS Gross Mess. Unfortunately most of Cold Steel's swords are grossly over rated. (no pun intended)

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


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Location: Alexandria, VA USA
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PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov, 2004 9:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow. That was one tough pumpkin.

You should send the photos to Cold Steel. Maybe you can get a refund.

Quote:
Unfortunately most of Cold Steel's swords are grossly over rated.


You said it.
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


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PostPosted: Mon 15 Nov, 2004 9:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Unfortunately most of Cold Steel's swords are grossly over rated.

Did you say "over-weighted"?

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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Tue 16 Nov, 2004 6:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We had a really good time and found that Jason's ATRIM is a dream of a cutting sword.


We all had our share of misses (often covered over as a "practice swing"), slight cuts, and Jason was proficient at cutting the bottom away from the pumpkins. But we enjoyed ourselves immensely and felt sorry for everyone who couldn't come.

We also did some "mid-air cutting", tossing pieces of pumpkin and attempting to either slice it in mid-air or spear it on the points of the blades.

I was swinging the CS when she broke. I hit edge on in a backcut and heard a loud "ping", and watched the blade sail up and away from me to land about 15 meters away. In more than 20 years of tameshgiri, that is the first and only time that I have had a sword break - on a pumpkin no less WTF?!

We also used a MRL Eurpopean Sword, which cut extremely well and felt very lively in the hand (I have used this one for cutting demos from horseback for a few years); an Albion Duke; a AA Knightly Riding Sword; Jason's ATRIM, Jason's AA Cut/Thrust Rapier (he will have to tell you the types of the two swords; and a Del Tin Dark Ages Sword.

As for the Dark Ages Sword, we all cut with it and all of us, except Jason, found that the flat pommel cut into our hands whether we used the hammer grip or the handshake grip. We guessed that it was probably due to the three of us (Mattie, Bob, and myself) having too large of hands for the hilt. Jason pointed out that during that time, most people were more of his size and that he cut well with it with no problems. Again, it goes to show that swords need to be fitted to the user to be properly utilized.

I hope that Mattie, Bob, and Jason will chime in with their thoughts.

Cheers!

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Allen W





Joined: 02 Mar 2004

Posts: 285

PostPosted: Tue 16 Nov, 2004 9:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a bizarre area for a sword to break. It brings to mind all of the viking swords shown broken in the first third of the blade in Swords of the Viking Age. I wonder if that blue area at the spine indicates a faulty heat treat. [/u]
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Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue 16 Nov, 2004 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote




Death to all pumpkins!

Oh, watermelons also included.

Big Grin

This "test cutting" was done with blunt swords, rebated to around 3 mm thick edge. The middle guy made a successful vertical “cut”, while the ones on the edge attempted a diagonal cut, and failed miserably. You can see that the leftmost watermelon bounced in the air due to too week strike, and I (the right guy) missed it almost completely. But I made a nice clean cut a second after that.

It’s a funny pic, just look at the faces…


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Bob Reinke




Location: Beaver Dam
Joined: 13 May 2004

Posts: 18

PostPosted: Tue 16 Nov, 2004 2:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Im glad to see that my ULTIMATE blade added....... I thought the pocket knife would be left out.

We all had fun. Matty's blade break was unfortunate, but the sound it made, and watching the blade slowly arc through the air was something to behold.

I'm torn between Jason's Atrim, and the Duke, I bet they would be GREAT to wield together. ( for those who have never heard or seen Jason's rant on dual-wielding of long weapons, it's worth the look on his face when you bring it up Laughing Out Loud )


The Tilt yard is almost complete, so the next cutting party will also involve horseback cutting!

Bob Reinke
Order of the Northern Star
(almost formerly known as The Kings Champions)
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Matt G. Meekma




Location: Horicon, Wi
Joined: 03 Mar 2004

Posts: 61

PostPosted: Tue 16 Nov, 2004 7:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmmm.... Seems that I no longer have a sword... hilt and broken blade just won't cut it. (pun intended)

Guess i will just have to order a different one. Poor me. Choices choices.

But Really. I was expecting to break the CS Messer one day cutting hard targets. Just Not Saturday and on pumpkins none the less. That was a little disappointing.

There definitely appears to be two "ages" in the breaks... Along the spine of the blade being much older, and the rest of the blade and edge being new on saturday. Not too sure if the heat treat could be the culprit or not. Would be neat to snap it again further up the blade to see if the discoloration is consistent through out the whole of the spine, but i don't see myself doing that.

Not too sure if CS will back it or not as i am not the original owner. Bought it here off the Market Place. Russ you wouldn't happen to be the original owner would you? Oh well can only try to see if they will stand behind their work as well as they say they do. If they won't then i think that the blade is destined to be come a Glaive of some sort.

As far as the rest of the day went, a good time was had by all.

The MRL European Sword did cut well but was a little flimsy for my tastes, little too much flex in the blade. Other than that it was not bad at all.

Lloyd's AA Riding sword was a pleasant surprise to me. Light and Responsive. Interesting sword to be sure.

And The Duke... Darn, Now that is a Sword. Seemed a little blade heavy while i was just holding it, but as soon as it is put into motion that feeling totally disappears. Quite Fast and Responsive to me (Granted my experience is extremely limited.)
And talk about sharp. Great Sword, everyone who put this together for Lloyd was having their "A" game for sure. (love that green wrap Eric) Can not wait to try that one cutting from horse back.

Del Tin Dark Age Sword. Not my cup of tea. Might be the size of my hand but i just could not find a comfortable way in which to hold this blade. Even with the pommel in the meat of my palm handshake style the hilt was way too small and my index finger up past the cross. I was afraid to swing it for fear of losing grip and sending it for a flight.

And Finally on to Jason's Blades.

His AA sword (not sure what it is, older piece and not even on their website) was another surprise to me. Not normally what i am into but this one was not bad. Very Easy to handle and fun to hold. Think the most fun Bob had was while trying to spear the airborne pumpkins on this one. He would not put it down.

But my over all favorite of the day was the AT DN1532 that Jason brought. This one just amazed me. Very light yet with a respectable presence. tracked through movements almost exactly. And talk about a cutter. Best part of the day for me was sending this one through back cuts against the pumpkins. Little too small for me to comfortable use hand and a half style, even with the pommel gripped in my off hand, but very nice as a one handed sword in my opinion. Great job on this one Gus!

Just Not too sure what i will end up getting for myself in the end. So Many swords on my list to chose what will be first. Guess only time ( and my pocket book) will tell.

Beer is God's way of saying He wants Us to be Happy. - Ben Franklin
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




Location: Göteborg Sweden
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 411

PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2004 10:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eek! That little dark spot on broken area, teels me it was broken already before the cut,
it was to hard harden and maybe crack when they assembly it,
luckily no one was hurt when it broke of and fly away. Happy

This video can show what could happen, see and learn. Happy
http://www.punchbaby.com/media/gitfakt/clips/TV/sword.wmv

Safety first Wink
Patrik
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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Wed 17 Nov, 2004 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Mattie,

There is still a Duke for sale on the board:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2276

I can see the ads now "The Duke, the weapon of choice for the King's Champions...." Big Grin

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Steve Ouellette




Location: Fort Collins Colorado
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Mon 29 Nov, 2004 9:01 pm    Post subject: I love my Cold Steel Gross Messer         Reply with quote

Do I understand correctly that the blade broke off -sheared off at the ricosso during a false edge/mandritto roverso strike at a pumpkin? I'm having a hard time picturing this. You have cut with it before I gather? I'm very curious about this and I hope you persue it with Cold Steel and that they are interested in the problem.
I've only cut with my messer once, but it was impressive-there were some pretty experienced guys there that rated it pretty high and mabe overrated it. Ha ha. It does not feel clunky at all to me and I'm very happy with it but my next sword will be an AT 1430. I will be very careful around pumkins until I hear an explanation of all this.
See ya Steve

In times of peace, the wise gentleman sharpens his sword.
Sun Tzu
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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
Joined: 08 Sep 2004

Posts: 508

PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 6:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Steve,

It was a simple, back-hand rising cut to the true edge. We had cut with it previously that day without a problem. Due to the temperature (about 35f) the pumpkins were a little hard, but not frozen.

I agree that Matt should take it up with Cold Steel. The darkened spot suggests to me that it was either previously fractured or perhaps overtempered at that point, creating a weak spot.

And yes, beware the Great Pumpkin Eek! Eek! Eek!

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Russ Ellis
Industry Professional




Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Reading list: 42 books

Posts: 2,607

PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 12:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matt notified me of the problem (and also this thread) yesterday. I've got to say I'm terribly disappointed in Cold Steel in this regard. That particular Grosse Messer seemed to be the creme de la creme of their Gross Messers, it was lighter and seemed better balanced then any of the other examples that I had handled. Then it just falls apart. I can personally attest that the only thing the sword was EVER used for was to cut pumpkins (and not many of those) while in my possession. It seemed to do a good job and I left it at that. It will be interesting to see if Cold Steel will put their money where their mouths are when Matt informs them. I suspect that they are going to want to see the blade. If they don't replace it I'll be surprised.
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Steve Ouellette




Location: Fort Collins Colorado
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 7:48 pm    Post subject: Hey Lloyd         Reply with quote

Matt and Russ answered a lot of questions I had about this failure both here and in another post in the Hist Arms section. I hope Matt keeps us posted on Cold Steel's responce(if they are not curious then I'd be disappointed.) and I am open to suggestions of non-distructive testing for my surviving messer. I've never thought of cutting pumkins but this is war. We never forget.
In times of peace, the wise gentleman sharpens his sword.
Sun Tzu
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Jay Davis




Location: Carrollton, GA
Joined: 17 Nov 2003

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 8:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve, I have a 1430, you can't go wrong. At David Stoke's cutting parties it usually outcuts pretty much every sword there.
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Steve Ouellette




Location: Fort Collins Colorado
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 23

PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2004 8:40 pm    Post subject: At1430         Reply with quote

Thanks for the info-I'm hoping to order one in the next 6 months or so. The first time I went on the All Saints site (March I think.) I just about fell off my chair and the more I learn, the more I like them.
In times of peace, the wise gentleman sharpens his sword.
Sun Tzu
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