Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Why is 14th century reproduction armour so limited in scope? Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Why is 14th century reproduction armour so limited in scope?         Reply with quote

Despite all the interesting forms of armour seen in 14th century effigies, statues and other art, it seems like almost all 14thC reproduction armour being produced is modeled either on the Wisby or Churburg armour.
This has the unfortunate effect in the SCA and reenactment communities of making the 14th century seem like a boring period with little variety, when in fact it was one of the most varied and diverse periods.
Why are people so hesitant to produce anything other than Churburg or Wisby pieces?
View user's profile Send private message
Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Wed 11 Jul, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: more 14th century armour?         Reply with quote

Well, more then likely its cuz those pieces have survived...its more difficult to create a pattern for armour without the full dimensions of the piece, and its hard to judge what the true shape of something is while looking through the art of the time :/
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2012 5:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes. I find this very true about bascinets of the 1st half. There are several very interesting developments including neck lames and I have never seen one made.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Why no one does the different styles of the 14th century         Reply with quote

My group is portraying 1415, the early 15th century. There seemed to be a great deal of different styles with that era too, we are trying to portray all the different examples of armour.

Im not sure why more people don't experiment with the different styles..perhaps cuz most armourers don't. Just stick within there comfort zone.

Also could contribute to people not really doing there research. I'v met many people who choose a period and get whatever comes to mind, not at all looking through the art or surviving examples.

-Reece



 Attachment: 59.99 KB
139-14_gallery.jpg
Where I based my cuirass

 Attachment: 81.48 KB
My cuirass I made. Notice I have the "saloon door" styled back plates [ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very nice, Reece, do the two backplates overlap on the spine? I am in the process of planning a new cuirass for eastern european style buhurd. It would be crucial to protect the backbone there.
I also believe the variety in late 14th/early 15th century could increase. And basing the armour on extant pieces is both more accurate and more easy then interpreting pictural evidence.
But on the other hand, there are more pieces existing then those from Visby and Churburg. There are harness pieces like the CoP from Asow, the harness from Chartres, the pieces from Chalkis, the vambraces from Tartu, Estonia, the Pieces in the French Army Museum and more I don't remember right now.
Those are more difficult to access, but non the less, they exist.
And armour intelligently based on spulptures and pictures is usual in other periods, too.
View user's profile Send private message
Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I find medieval sculpture as a whole to be much more developed than it's often given credit for, and some effigies even depict details down to the rivets. Even with somewhat less detailed sculptures, stained glass and manuscript miniatures, it's usually simple to interpret how the pieces would have functioned.
But since not a lot of people seem to do this, the armour choices available to re-enactors remain very limited. For example, if someone wanted to create an authentic looking 1370's cap-a-pie French harness, they would have to get nearly everything custom made, and I've never seen a reproduction of such a harness.
It'd just be nice to see more people break the mold, like Reece did with his cuirass.
View user's profile Send private message
Michael R. Mann




Location: Germany
Joined: 26 Jun 2012

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the armours for knights where often individually produced and so there must have exist a wide range of different armours during the respective era. Also the armours where under a continual development, also a reason to accept a wide range.
Companies today makes rather a repeated copy of an existing model as long this armour can be sold. I think such a mass production is simply cheaper than an individual product.


@Reece Nelson:
I doubt that an armour in the early 15th century had such back plates which you described as "saloon door like". Seems also that you had used hinges at the sides.
The system was much simpler, see the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y4j4QhU2nI&list=PLA576F7A4BB0D2D17&index=17&feature=plpp_video (or search on youtube for Die Sendung mit der Maus - Ritterrüstung ). If there is a need I can make a short summary of the comment.
What's the origin of the picture which you had posted?
View user's profile Send private message
Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jul, 2012 6:24 pm    Post subject: 14century reproduction armour         Reply with quote

@ Michael

The back plates that are dipicted in the art show a line going down the middle with straps going across the back, joining the plates together. This image is from France and there are several more images that show these type of "salloon" styled back plates. Also I plan to adject the hinges for the inside of the curaiss, to prevent from any fabric or mail to catch on them. The video you showed was of a 16th century styled harness...during the early 15th centuries were you start see fully covered back plates ( haven't documented to see them in the 14th century yet, still looking)

During the early 15 centuries you see a lot of man at arms and knights not wear a jupon over their chest, so you will see a lot more detail on the armour.

-Reece
View user's profile Send private message
Josh Warren




Location: Manhattan, Kansas
Joined: 01 Nov 2006

Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2012 5:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Another depiction of a center-opening backplate in the early 15th century:


Non Concedo
View user's profile Send private message
Michael R. Mann




Location: Germany
Joined: 26 Jun 2012

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm, such a kind of armour we have never seen. Cool
Is the drawing a picture from the Chronicles of Jean Froissart (about 1337~ 1405) where he had described the first years of the Hundred Years War between France and Great Britain?
Or exists other sources with such armours? Then some links would be nice. Happy


@ Josh
This is a picture of the statue of St. Georg as he kills a dragon: http://www.combatmedieval.com/mitaines-armure-saint-georges/ . See more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George
I don't know how realistic such a statue is, presumable not. Surely it's not a picture of a knight. The part of the back plate could be also a part of a cross or a scabbard for a sword or a long knife.
View user's profile Send private message
Josh Warren




Location: Manhattan, Kansas
Joined: 01 Nov 2006

Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri 13 Jul, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is a clearer photo of the statue:



It appears to unequivocally depict a back defence composed of two plates that fasten with buckles down the center of the back. It definitely isn't part of a cross or a scabbard for a sword or a long knife, though.

Plenty of other depictions of such back defences exist, too:





The one above is from a statuette of William II, Duke of Bavaria.

Non Concedo
View user's profile Send private message
M. Curk




Location: Slovenia
Joined: 21 Dec 2011
Likes: 3 pages

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 1:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael R. Mann wrote:
The system was much simpler, see the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y4j4QhU2nI&list=PLA576F7A4BB0D2D17&index=17&feature=plpp_video (or search on youtube for Die Sendung mit der Maus - Ritterrüstung ).


I don't really understand what they are saying but the part where they lift him onto his horse using a winch just makes me sad about disunderstanding of how well articulated the armour is. And it's horrible that a lot of people (including my father Wink) still think that armour was heavy and unpractical.

Miha
View user's profile Send private message
Robert S. Haile





Joined: 16 Dec 2007

Posts: 126

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 2:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's great to see so many other folks noticing how untapped the 14th century is. Naturally, we see a lot more reproductions of extant pieces for good reason, but the whole the the 14th century was host to loads of variable styles of weaponry, armor, surcoats, etc.. It would certainly be nice to see more reproductions based on lesser known styles of armor, particularly bascinet visors. The great range of the late 14th century is what ultimately pressed me into settling on the epoch as my period of choice. I myself use a unique single ocular bascinet which I've managed to locate tons of examples of in period art from 1350-1410 (I've included one example c.1375 in an attachment, but would be willing to post more if anyone so requests).

To contribute to the thread, here's an effigy of Hugh Hastings wrought with oddities, the most well known of which is his bevor-like piece attached to his bascinet, I would like to draw attention to the two smaller plates on the outside center of the effigy, particularly the left image. The man at arms pictured wears a very interesting bascinet visor with what appear to be almond eye shaped oculars. Overall it reminds me of early Greek Corinthian helms in style.

http://i.imgur.com/APbAk.jpg (Sir Hugh)



 Attachment: 15.59 KB
1375Visor.jpg
The visor of interested is located near the top center of the image.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 4:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, more bascinets please!!! Big Grin Big Grin
Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michael R. Mann




Location: Germany
Joined: 26 Jun 2012

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 6:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah yes, now I see it. Eek!

The picture of bible-history.com is the only source (and only available in the english spoken corner of the Internet) which shows both parts (front & rear) of an armour which William VI of Holland / William II of Bayern-Straubing used. The site name this armour as a dutch armour, perhaps this kind of armour was produced only in this region.
The statue of St. George was also made by artists of Flanders (today it's a part of Belgium, Holland itself is a part of the Netherlands) in the same era. So the flanders artists used a dutch armour for the statue.
The pictures of Jean Froissart's Chronicles then also shows soldiers in dutch armours (together with french and english knights / soldiers). Perhaps these soldiers where mercenaries from this part of Flanders which belonged to France. Froissat lived prevailing also in this region. If the posted drawing is from Froissart then the dutch armours exists some decades.
But I don't know where the knight on the stone frieze is.

So Reece's cuirass is authentic - and we should visit our National Library to expand our knowledges. Such a big Black Hole is really painful. Cry


Here are links to maps which explains this region:
Beginning of the 15th century: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...gund_2.png
Today: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...nde%29.svg & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium .
Translations:
Herzog: Duke, Graf: Earl
Herzogtum Brabant: Duchy of Brabant; Grafschaft Flandern: Conty Flanders.
Frankreich: France; Heiliges Römisches Reich (Deutscher. Nation): Holy Roman Empire (HRE)
Penciled red: Border between France and HRE



.
View user's profile Send private message
Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 612

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert S. Haile wrote:
I myself use a unique single ocular bascinet which I've managed to locate tons of examples of in period art from 1350-1410 (I've included one example c.1375 in an attachment, but would be willing to post more if anyone so requests).


That would be great Robert! Always looking to add to my library. Happy
BTW, could you reference the image you included. I believe it is Italian but I don't recognize the piece.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert S. Haile wrote:
It's great to see so many other folks noticing how untapped the 14th century is. Naturally, we see a lot more reproductions of extant pieces for good reason, but the whole the the 14th century was host to loads of variable styles of weaponry, armor, surcoats, etc.. It would certainly be nice to see more reproductions based on lesser known styles of armor, particularly bascinet visors. The great range of the late 14th century is what ultimately pressed me into settling on the epoch as my period of choice. I myself use a unique single ocular bascinet which I've managed to locate tons of examples of in period art from 1350-1410 (I've included one example c.1375 in an attachment, but would be willing to post more if anyone so requests).

To contribute to the thread, here's an effigy of Hugh Hastings wrought with oddities, the most well known of which is his bevor-like piece attached to his bascinet, I would like to draw attention to the two smaller plates on the outside center of the effigy, particularly the left image. The man at arms pictured wears a very interesting bascinet visor with what appear to be almond eye shaped oculars. Overall it reminds me of early Greek Corinthian helms in style.

http://i.imgur.com/APbAk.jpg (Sir Hugh)


Yes, I've noticed a lot of visors like that as well.
I'm not sure if you've seen these, but here are some better images of the small figures on the Hastings brass.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/ralph_stafford/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/laure...204/large/
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/thoma.../original/

It really illustrates the wide array of visors used in 1340 England alone.
View user's profile Send private message
Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a great number of surviving Bascinets from the 14century-early 15th

https://plus.google.com/photos/115962623729091930300/albums/5433287750914154321?banner=pwa
https://plus.google.com/photos/115962623729091930300/albums/5433349869779212449?banner=pwa
View user's profile Send private message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Now, what is this?
https://plus.google.com/photos/115962623729091930300/albums/5433349869779212449/5512067955949446610?banner=pwa
I've seen many reproductions with this kind of visors, but I never knew that there was an existing one.
Is this original or a good reproduction?

edit: just remembered that it's the visor of the famous visored barbute http://www.wolfeargent.com/firestryker/barbute_visor.jpg
Nonetheless, what can you say about the visor? I know that is common belief that it doesen't belong tho the helmet, but what else can you tell me about it?

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Michael R. Mann




Location: Germany
Joined: 26 Jun 2012

Posts: 28

PostPosted: Sat 14 Jul, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Was a Cervelliere (german: Hirnhaube or Eisenhaube) also used in the 14th century?
Different sources says these helmets where used continuous from the late 12th till the 17th century prevailing by soldiers, other sources says these type of helmet disappered in the mid to the 13th century.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Why is 14th century reproduction armour so limited in scope?
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum