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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Sparring with a Chinese martial artist         Reply with quote

http://youtu.be/9_htrl0pthQ

Sparring with a Chinese martial artist! We sparred for 41 rounds, he had 1 life left and I had 36 left.

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T. Arndt




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: Sparring with a Chinese martial artist         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
http://youtu.be/9_htrl0pthQ

Sparring with a Chinese martial artist! We sparred for 41 rounds, he had 1 life left and I had 36 left.


Does your friend’s art not usually include a sword? I ask just because he seemed to have no idea what to do, and used langort as his one and only guard.

If your friend’s art is not a sword art, keeping score seems a little unfair- lol. Being more aggressive would help him too as he seems to never have the initiative and never act in vor.

P.S. Please forgive the use of German terms, I don't know what terminology you normally use.

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: Sparring with a Chinese martial artist         Reply with quote

He practice Wing Chun for 4 to 5 years, which includes long staff and 2 short swords. However, since he believe he can use Tai Chi Dao with his unarmed skills as well, the katana would fit. He was one of the traditionalists who thought armed combat was no different from unarmed combat. Thus this sparring he learned about the truth with the hard way.

It's ok to use German terminology. Before I switched to Chinese martial arts, I was a German longsword practitioner as well.

T. Arndt wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
http://youtu.be/9_htrl0pthQ

Sparring with a Chinese martial artist! We sparred for 41 rounds, he had 1 life left and I had 36 left.


Does your friend’s art not usually include a sword? I ask just because he seemed to have no idea what to do, and used langort as his one and only guard.

If your friend’s art is not a sword art, keeping score seems a little unfair- lol. Being more aggressive would help him too as he seems to never have the initiative and never act in vor.

P.S. Please forgive the use of German terms, I don't know what terminology you normally use.

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Sparring with a Chinese martial artist         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
He was one of the traditionalists who thought armed combat was no different from unarmed combat.

Interesting- I didn't know that was a school of thought. Is this thinking wide spread amongst eastern martial arts?

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Thus this sparring he learned about the truth with the hard way.

I guess so! Often times nothing resolves a martial debate like a sparring with intent or a realistic war-game.

Lancelot Chan wrote:
It's ok to use German terminology. Before I switched to Chinese martial arts, I was a German longsword practitioner as well.

I thought some of your fencing was very western longswordish. Do you find yourself mixing sword arts?

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: Sparring with a Chinese martial artist         Reply with quote

Yes, that thought of "armed combat will be fine automatically if unarmed combat is mastered" is very wide spread. Added with the fact that most of them don't spar (be it armed or unarmed), it produced many "dancers" instead of martial artists.

Yes, I mix some German moves into my Chinese style, using the same geometry but changed the powering mechanism to Chinese method. You've good observation.

T. Arndt wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
He was one of the traditionalists who thought armed combat was no different from unarmed combat.

Interesting- I didn't know that was a school of thought. Is this thinking wide spread amongst eastern martial arts?

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Thus this sparring he learned about the truth with the hard way.

I guess so! Often times nothing resolves a martial debate like a sparring with intent or a realistic war-game.

Lancelot Chan wrote:
It's ok to use German terminology. Before I switched to Chinese martial arts, I was a German longsword practitioner as well.

I thought some of your fencing was very western longswordish. Do you find yourself mixing sword arts?

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mostly doesn't seem to have a clue about parrying and having at least a couple of useful guards, he seems to chase your sword at times in a hesitating way not sure at what angle to intercept with his sword.

Longpoint can be useful if it's actually used in a way that the opponent will feel threatened by it and has to first deal with it before attacking.

Attacks are often way out of measure and have no hope of reaching you with twitchy trusts.

One time at least he telegraphs a great deal when bringing his point back from longpoint for a diagonal cut giving you a lot of time to hit him first.

Longpoint, if I'm not mistaken, can be good to force the opponent to bind and from the bind take the initiative in various ways: It can be a very frustrating guard for the opponent when well used. Longpoint is not a good guard to directly attack with without losing time cocking back the sword or going to another guard.

To be fair, he had the disadvantage in reach by being a smaller guy and even more so having a shorter sword: His best chance would have been with a bind and then using some form of doubling or mutation assuming he knew how ! And then close the distance while still protecting himself effectively.

He does, manage engagement distance well a few times by retreating out of measure of your attacks but not so well when trying to close to attack where he mostly attacks out of measure.

Full speed is challenging also because a lot of the Liechtenauer ( What I'm most familiar with ) techniques in the bind are hard to apply in bouting versus theoretical paired drills: Why we don't often see the mastercuts used well in the heat of a competitive bout !

( Side issue here of why people revert to survival mode rather than use good technique in bouts: Short answer to me is that even though simple in theory the mastercuts and techniques from the bind are difficult to execute at speed without a great deal of training and the discipline to try using them to learn to use them at the cost of losing competitive bouts ).

One thing I've mentioned to you before is that the low wall on the roof top where you practice always worries me that someone losing balance near the wall could go over the side, and even more so if they are tall and their centre of gravity is higher than the wall ! Maybe concerned for nothing but thought I should mention it again. Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jul, 2012 11:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, thanks for your detailed analysis and I agree that he scared the hell outta us when he suddenly jump backward to the wall. That was crazy. He's taller than I am and that made me worry even more about his crash to the wall.

His sword was a lot lighter than mine and his speed would be a lot faster than I could ever manage to do. However, I stayed out of his reach of full arm thrusts so that if he has to hit me, he has to move his feet. By moving his feet, I have more time to react to his thrusts. So I was relatively safe because I employed distance to buy myself time for reaction.

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2012 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Wow, thanks for your detailed analysis and I agree that he scared the hell outta us when he suddenly jump backward to the wall. That was crazy. He's taller than I am and that made me worry even more about his crash to the wall.

His sword was a lot lighter than mine and his speed would be a lot faster than I could ever manage to do. However, I stayed out of his reach of full arm thrusts so that if he has to hit me, he has to move his feet. By moving his feet, I have more time to react to his thrusts. So I was relatively safe because I employed distance to buy myself time for reaction.



Thanks I appreciate the compliment but I am certainly not qualified to teach this stuff and am very bad at remembering the vocabulary and " German " names of the techniques, I did do 4 years of training with a very good teacher and this included mostly longsword, a bit of 1:33, a 3 month session of private classes in dagger and wrestling, a good amount of staff training mostly based on the " Jeu de la Hache and a day seminar in Irish stick fighting. ( Just giving background and my preferred techniques where at the bind which is frustrating when I see people leaving the bind when they could directly attack around the opponents sword instead of leaving the bind and trying to attack from a different angle ..... and at full speed leaving the bind can be a good choice but it's very dangerous leaving the bind with an opponent who has good fűhlen and can feel the the leaving of the bind almost before it happens and then attack in the middle of the other withdrawing his sword ).

Funny I got the impression he was shorter than you ? Maybe because of the camera angle/perspective making look shorter at the beginning of the clip.

Still, your sword was a little longer but it does mean that good managing of measure by you was an even more important factor. I also think that after the beginning his confidence took a serious " HIT " or rather a lot of hits and you also psychologically dominated the bout and he couldn't really recover in part because everything he tried didn't seem to work, and he just didn't have time to think ....... He did try a trailing guard at least once but had no idea what to do with it ! A set up to suck you in but for that to work you have to have a plan about how you will parry or bind and transition to an attack. ( An attack in one time being the best option if possible ).

His speed could have been faster with the lighter sword but you managed measure in such a way that nothing he did could surprise you as you always had the reaction time advantage plus he was mostly clueless about how to attack with either thrusts or cuts: Speed with no technique or plan is not very useful I think.

( Managing distance/measure in this way is applying a core principle regardless of weapon or techniques and is tactical strategic fighting: I'm very impressed with you here, as most people put too much emphasis on learning " tricks " and complex moves often forgetting the simple to say but hard to apply core/universal principles. Big Grin Cool Sort of like the old " Buy low / Sell high " principle of investing: Nothing could be simpler as a core principle but applying it in real life is a bit more difficult ).

I almost feel " mean and unkind " bringing up the flaws in his bouting ! Lack of sword technique(s) could have been compensated by aggression and having better management of measure and timing plus some sort of plan ..... any plan. Wink Big Grin

For the low wall I think you should set up a fighting area using standing poles and rope off a fighting rectangle at least 4' from the wall and keep the action at a safe distance so that if someone tripped or was knocked down by accident they would fall on the ground and not go over the wall or even hit their head on the top of the wall.

Icy cool and calm fighters are not likely to go over the wall, but an over eager or nervous person forgetting to be aware of his surroundings could run right into the wall, and over !

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You're totally correct in your analysis. His confident was seriously dent in the first couple rounds I think, especially after he tried to hit me forcefully with a single handed strike. He put all effort into that gamble and could not even to knock my sword away. That crushed his original plan of "going aggressive with a two handed sword". My measure of distance also forbid him to give me any thrust by surprise.

I think your idea of putting poles around as fighting area is good, especially for our rooftop sparring. Hhehe. Usually when we have more people around, they would form up a human-boundary to prevent the fighters going too close to the wall. Yet, not every time I spar was during a lesson where there was a group of people around. I spar usually at afternoon to take video records so my students have yet to arrive after school or work.

We also have an area set up by rope on the ground for the tournaments we hold. I just seldom spend the time to bring it to the rooftop to set it up. I think it's in more need now, after this incident. At least when I notice my partner has gone off boundary, I can simply call off the round and let him return into the area to start another round, instead of chasing him around to the walls.

I also enjoy attacking from the bind when chance permits because usually it's when I can simultaneously attack and defend myself. I just don't fixate myself on doing it every time, though, because according to experience, when sparring earnestly, the opponent could twirl his sword around in fear when the bind happens, and still gave me some scratching wounds if it was a real sword. To avoid getting hit at all, no matter how slightly, sometimes it was safer to knock his sword away to open up the path of attack. But then, if my opponent tends to retreat from a bind, I would simply strike from the bind. This is easy to tell by attempting an attack in the bind a couple times. Then I'll know which option is better fit for the opponent. :P

Another reason that my heavier sword did not seem to be slower than his lighter sword was that I employed my body weight as the "counter weight" to bring my sword in action. So very little arm strength was involved. A 200lbs body to bring a 4.75lbs sword around was very effective. I did the following demonstration to show such ability to some Chinese martial artists in Taiwan, who thought it was all wrist and arms strength that matter in a sword fight. They had lost the teaching of "moving the sword with body" for a long time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQLEgM4bwuY

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
Lancelot Chan wrote:
Wow, thanks for your detailed analysis and I agree that he scared the hell outta us when he suddenly jump backward to the wall. That was crazy. He's taller than I am and that made me worry even more about his crash to the wall.

His sword was a lot lighter than mine and his speed would be a lot faster than I could ever manage to do. However, I stayed out of his reach of full arm thrusts so that if he has to hit me, he has to move his feet. By moving his feet, I have more time to react to his thrusts. So I was relatively safe because I employed distance to buy myself time for reaction.



Thanks I appreciate the compliment but I am certainly not qualified to teach this stuff and am very bad at remembering the vocabulary and " German " names of the techniques, I did do 4 years of training with a very good teacher and this included mostly longsword, a bit of 1:33, a 3 month session of private classes in dagger and wrestling, a good amount of staff training mostly based on the " Jeu de la Hache and a day seminar in Irish stick fighting. ( Just giving background and my preferred techniques where at the bind which is frustrating when I see people leaving the bind when they could directly attack around the opponents sword instead of leaving the bind and trying to attack from a different angle ..... and at full speed leaving the bind can be a good choice but it's very dangerous leaving the bind with an opponent who has good fűhlen and can feel the the leaving of the bind almost before it happens and then attack in the middle of the other withdrawing his sword ).

Funny I got the impression he was shorter than you ? Maybe because of the camera angle/perspective making look shorter at the beginning of the clip.

Still, your sword was a little longer but it does mean that good managing of measure by you was an even more important factor. I also think that after the beginning his confidence took a serious " HIT " or rather a lot of hits and you also psychologically dominated the bout and he couldn't really recover in part because everything he tried didn't seem to work, and he just didn't have time to think ....... He did try a trailing guard at least once but had no idea what to do with it ! A set up to suck you in but for that to work you have to have a plan about how you will parry or bind and transition to an attack. ( An attack in one time being the best option if possible ).

His speed could have been faster with the lighter sword but you managed measure in such a way that nothing he did could surprise you as you always had the reaction time advantage plus he was mostly clueless about how to attack with either thrusts or cuts: Speed with no technique or plan is not very useful I think.

( Managing distance/measure in this way is applying a core principle regardless of weapon or techniques and is tactical strategic fighting: I'm very impressed with you here, as most people put too much emphasis on learning " tricks " and complex moves often forgetting the simple to say but hard to apply core/universal principles. Big Grin Cool Sort of like the old " Buy low / Sell high " principle of investing: Nothing could be simpler as a core principle but applying it in real life is a bit more difficult ).

I almost feel " mean and unkind " bringing up the flaws in his bouting ! Lack of sword technique(s) could have been compensated by aggression and having better management of measure and timing plus some sort of plan ..... any plan. Wink Big Grin

For the low wall I think you should set up a fighting area using standing poles and rope off a fighting rectangle at least 4' from the wall and keep the action at a safe distance so that if someone tripped or was knocked down by accident they would fall on the ground and not go over the wall or even hit their head on the top of the wall.

Icy cool and calm fighters are not likely to go over the wall, but an over eager or nervous person forgetting to be aware of his surroundings could run right into the wall, and over !

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
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Colt Reeves





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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Sparring with a Chinese martial artist         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
Yes, that thought of "armed combat will be fine automatically if unarmed combat is mastered" is very wide spread. Added with the fact that most of them don't spar (be it armed or unarmed), it produced many "dancers" instead of martial artists.




The saying "A weapon is just an extension of the body" seems to frequently be taken out of context by some unarmed schools and styles to suggest they are competent with weapons. Take a look at this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKnTUzBXo0o I don't know where he learned to flail around like that or who told him that chunk of metal was a sword, but I doubt he has had much serious training in swordplay.

"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jul, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Sparring with a Chinese martial artist         Reply with quote

I've seen this video before and had absolutely no idea what he was trying to do.... thanks for bringing this up as a non Chinese martial arts example for this case!

Colt Reeves wrote:
The saying "A weapon is just an extension of the body" seems to frequently be taken out of context by some unarmed schools and styles to suggest they are competent with weapons. Take a look at this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKnTUzBXo0o I don't know where he learned to flail around like that or who told him that chunk of metal was a sword, but I doubt he has had much serious training in swordplay.

Ancient Combat Association —http://www.acahk.org
Realistic Sparring Weapons — http://www.rsw.com.hk
Nightstalkers — http://www.nightstalkers.com.hk
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


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