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Alain Gladys




Location: France
Joined: 30 Jun 2012

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Help for identification 15th Hungary sword with Passau wolf         Reply with quote

Hello,

I am newly coming on this forum. I am very interesting in medieval arts and start a little time ago to study and search about swords up to late 16th c.
I am also starting a collection.
One proposes me this nice sword. I made researches on it and I think that it should be a second half XV th c.piece from eastern Europe and mainly Hungary. I read that such swords could also be Venetian.
Eduard Wagner shows few examples of such pieces on his book, plate 25

BUT on the blade is a Passau running wolf ...So I am wondering if this sword is homogeneous as I can not find any informations about a such mark in Hungary. Isn't this sword a composite one...?
However I read on this forum that Passau blades were made in that location to be mounted later in the location they were exported
I will be glad to get advices from more scholars people than me.

Hope my english is ok..
Thanks very much for helping and teaching
Alain



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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,234

PostPosted: Sat 30 Jun, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Imported blade hilted locally is nothing unusual. You are right when you say this is probably Hungarian (or maybe Croatian) sword from second half of the 15th century and blade is Passau, maybe older than the hilt...
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Alain Gladys




Location: France
Joined: 30 Jun 2012

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 1:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Luka for answering.
Would you mean that the blade could be 14 th c. and the grip late 15 th c.?
What makes you feel that?
Best
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posts: 2,234

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The blade looks like a XIIa or maybe XVIa to me, and they were mostly made in 14th century, but it doesn't have to be so, in some areas such blades remained popular longer than in other areas so both the blade and hilt could be 15th century. Also old style broad cutting blades became popular again at the end of the 15th and beginning of the 16th century. So it's hard to tell, maybe even impossible.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,835

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 8:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some wolfies to compare from Wagner's book. This could be a piece as late as the 15th century. or early 16th century

Some examples in Nathan's schiavona feature article.
http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html

These are listed as Venetian type hilts.

Cheers

GC



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Alain Gladys




Location: France
Joined: 30 Jun 2012

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for answering;

I read Nathan's article and he suggests also a hungarian provenance as an ancestor of Schiavona
Pommel is not cat's head but square
I found from a member of the forum these 2 pictures taken in Balkans and dated second half of 15th .
Rather similar to mine.
My question was to know if a such Passau blade was coherent and plausible with the hilt....Hard question for me !!!

Best
Alain



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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe this will be useful to you as there is some information about on the period and region of this reproduction sword made by Del Tin that has a very similar grip but with a different style of blade.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...esca+Sword

Older blades where often re-hilted to a more modern style, and some regions retained older styles even when they where out of fashion in other areas.

And welcome to the site. Big Grin

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Alain Gladys




Location: France
Joined: 30 Jun 2012

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Merci Jean
Ahh le Québec...!!!
Hope to go there one day , so lovely accent.
So my blade seems in any case to come either from Hungaria, Eastern Italy or Croatia and dated by all your comments end of 15th.
If I understand well Jean, it seems to be very difficult to date and state on a location production because blades might be re-hilted later in another design.
So how is it possible to classify swords in an homogeneous way? A XIIa blade may have a style 12 cross and S type pommel? 3 crierions to classify?

Thanks for teaching
Best
Alain
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

Posts: 1,835

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is no reason to suggest the blade is not of the same age as the hilt. Indeed, the Passau mark kind of points to the fittings the same age as the blade.

Cheers

GC
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Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Jul, 2012 9:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alain Gladys wrote:
Merci Jean
Ahh le Québec...!!!
Hope to go there one day , so lovely accent.
So my blade seems in any case to come either from Hungaria, Eastern Italy or Croatia and dated by all your comments end of 15th.
If I understand well Jean, it seems to be very difficult to date and state on a location production because blades might be re-hilted later in another design.
So how is it possible to classify swords in an homogeneous way? A XIIa blade may have a style 12 cross and S type pommel? 3 crierions to classify?

Thanks for teaching
Best
Alain


Old blade, newer hilt is a possibility to consider but as Glen mentions it might well be the original blade and hilt.

As to " homogeneity " or consistency of typology I think it is sort of illusory to think that in period people would be arguing about " errors " in Typology or conforming to our classifications: From the originals we have and know of we try to sort sword out by Type and style for different time periods and places. We can be wrong with some of our assumptions and the Typologies is more a tool to help in our modern communications about swords than a rigid set of rules people at the time would have known or felt obliged to follow. Changes in armour, fighting styles and " fashion " would have influenced design changes or conservatism the retention off older types !? ( Mostly my opinion, I hope based on logic ).

Oh, and Québec is a nice place to live in ..... not that it doesn't have it's problems at times, but people here work to live rather than live to work. Montréal is very cosmopolitan and one can find restaurants for food from all the countries of the World ... or at least it seems that way at times. ( Well, done my unofficial work here for local " Tourist Bureau " public relations. Wink Laughing Out Loud Cool ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Alain Gladys




Location: France
Joined: 30 Jun 2012

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jul, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
I also found this on the web . A discuss talking about similar swords and sabers with S shaped guard, suare pommel but curved blades.
It goes on the Glen's and Luka's way and develop the idea that Venice was very influent
This topic speaks about sabers but I guess we can also consider european eastern swords as well

Thanks

"As to the provenance of the original saber(s) I'd say it could be both Hungarian or Venetian (or even Balkan in origin) - Venice had a considerable influence on Hungaro-Balkan arms and amour (the blade however would be after the Turkish fashion of course).. I imagine that such a saber could easily have been carried by either a period Hungarian Hussar, Venetian Stradiot or even a Rumelian (european) Ottoman trooper.. Do note also the slightly canted handle on some pieces as well.. Many of the men serving in those units were often of mixed heritage that is Serb/Magyar (early hussars) , Albanian/Greek (stradiots) to name a few.. During the period in questions these nations were heavily influenced by both North Italian as well as Ottoman Turkish trends. A result of this mating can be imho quite clearly seen in those transitional sabers. "
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