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Kai Lawson




Location: Madison, WI
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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 12:29 pm    Post subject: Hilt Components         Reply with quote

I have a inquiry, which may have already been covered elsewhere: are there extant photos or examples of the 'Gaddhjalt' type 1 cross with a lobated or type N pommel? I understand the type N may well exist; however, I am having trouble finding good pictures of it. I am curious about the lobated pommel/spike hilt combo though; the lobated pommels including the non lobated (though earlier style) pommels, i.e. Geibig type 1-11. Any help?
"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Most swords with type N hilts have Oakeshott type 1 "gaddhjalt" crosses. As far as I know, the type 1 cross is never combined with any sort of lobed pommels. http://independent.academia.edu/MarkoAleksic/..._of_Type_N http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...;highlight
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although not a "spike" hilt, this example shows a simple bar cross with a lobated pommel. It is Russian, from the 12th century according to my notes...


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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That one is very interesting. It reminds me of the Polish Piast type T horn-hilted lobe-pommeled swords. There are indeed plenty of late type T and type Z or Z/T and Oakeshotte type M swords with long crosses, but I have yet to see one with a type 1 "gaddhjalt."
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Most swords with type N hilts have Oakeshott type 1 "gaddhjalt" crosses. As far as I know, the type 1 cross is never combined with any sort of lobed pommels. http://independent.academia.edu/MarkoAleksic/..._of_Type_N http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...;highlight

That article is about Oakeshott N types. I would guess due to context he means Petersen N pommels. As to Gaddhjalts, Peirce notes with this type that the lower guard averaged 10cm with late examples reacing 15.4cm

There does seem to be a dearth of good pictures of Petersen Type N pommels. I have looked for some for a custom project I have.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, yes, it is very important to specify which typology one is using. The Petersen type N is indeed a fairly rare type, the type specimen in De Norke Vikingsverd is the only one that I have ever seen a pic of or heard of. I would be interested in seeing pics of any other examples.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I got a pic or two of other ones. Gimme a few minutes...

Alright, I found two, but not sure how useful they will be

First is the pommel only so it won't help you with the cross


Second is one that I believe may be a Type N, but it could also be another type.


Sorry I couldn't be more help. There just isn't alot of Type N out there, which is why I will likely have Jeff Helmes go with a Type X hilt for our project. I do really like the type N form though.

While looking around for you though, I did notice quite a few type 13 pommels on long "gaddhjalt" crosses. Seems to be the other common form that turns up on Gaddhjalts besides Brazil Nut and Tea Cozy forms.

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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, but only Geibig type 13 v II, the 13 v I's always have curved Oakeshott style 7 crosses. Also, the hilt you showed could maybe be a Petersen V? Kinda hard to tell.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Mon 11 Jun, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Yes, but only Geibig type 13 v II, the 13 v I's always have curved Oakeshott style 7 crosses. Also, the hilt you showed could maybe be a Petersen V? Kinda hard to tell.
That is the River Nene sword. I just found an article by Anne Stalsberg "VLFBERHT swords reevalutated" in which she places it as a Type N.

I'd call this a 13v1 wouldn't you?


Here's another

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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jun, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Touche. They do look like all the other flat style 7 guards that go with 13 v I except they are straight instead of slightly curved. I should of course know better than to ever say "always" or "never" when it comes to swords Wink.
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Kai Lawson




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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2012 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ha ha ha this is wonderful! I ask a question and receive more information and resources than I had hoped for, by people who seem to care about the answer. It is so nice to be able to do that kind of thing--Mr. Woodruff's link to the PDF-ish site is fantastic.

That aside, the type N I was referencing was using Oakeshott's typology (the crescent moon boat deal) (or Geibig type 17 v.I and 17 v.II), which I figured generally had some sort of bar guard. However, as far as my searching has shown, there seems to be little rule regarding specific forms and do's and don'ts. I think it odd that some of the later lobed pommels, which may overlap the spreading use of the simple crossbar, both tapered and non, should be relatively scant in either actual finds or in art. I understand the paucity of swords made to swords we find, but it still puzzles me.

Could it be regional flavor in transition? Perhaps a mixing of styles due to increased cultural contact, or some form or religious expression as early Christianity takes hold--proto cruciform, as the hilt types and religion mature? I dunno, I'm just shooting on the dark with this one...

Keep the goods coming please!

"And they crossed swords."
--William Goldman, alias S. Morgenstern
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Wed 13 Jun, 2012 10:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are some threads here and there that discuss the symbolic/religious meaning associated with various hilt forms. This thread will interest you. http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...t=warsword The crescent was associated with the Virgin Mary, the patron saint of the Order of Tuetonic Knights of the Hospital of St. Mary in Jerusalem. Also check out this link to Kazakevicius' book about Baltic swords http://www.club-kaup.narod.ru/kaup_r_kazakevicius00_orig.html Page 78-80 and 82 show some type N pommel swords with very short, thick guards. The symbolic significance of lobed pommels, if there ever was any, has been lost in the mists of time. However, the existence of swords with lobed pommels and Christian decorative elements suggests to me that there was no particular religious significance to the lobed pommel. I am seriously considering putting a type N or O pommel on a monstrous 90cm long type Xa/XII blade that I have. I have not decided yet if I want a straight or curved spike-hilt or a short, thick Baltic-style cross. Apparently, the oldest type N's are the short-crossed Baltic examples.
PS: Mr Woodruff is my Dad, you can call me Scott Wink
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sun 17 Jun, 2012 9:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
The symbolic significance of lobed pommels, if there ever was any, has been lost in the mists of time.


Scott, in H.E. Davidson's book <http://www.amazon.com/The-Sword-Anglo-Saxon-England-Archaeology/dp/0851157165> she briefly mentions sagas which refer to 'the fist of the sword', which she interprets to be the pommel. This image presumably relates to use of the pommel to smash things like a fist. This would make the most sense for the 5-lobed version, especially earlier squarish types that do indeed look like a fist. -JD
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