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Guy H.




Location: Texas
Joined: 09 Mar 2011

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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: How historically accurate is this sword?         Reply with quote

Just wondering how accurate this sword is. I am still searching for a "gothic" type sword for my Sigmund armour.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...thic+Sword
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On a scale of one to ten, maybe a three. If it is truly based on an original, I'd be interested in seeing the example this reproduction is modeled after.

Cheers

GC
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Guy H.




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So its a stinker. I'm open to examples that are correct. Any suggestions?
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guy H. wrote:
So its a stinker. I'm open to examples that are correct. Any suggestions?


Albions Regent or perhaps the Munich. Arms & Armor has several that would fit.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well the Albion Regent comes to mind. Wink

http://www.myArmoury.com/review_alb_reg.html

Same pommel type, but crisp bevel lines and the blade is period accurate and all Albion swords where researched and designed by Peter Johnsson. In the Next Generation line the swords are typical of " type " but not based on a specific sword. In the Museum line they are as closely replicates of an actual period sword as it was when newly made. ( Some original swords are damaged or corroded enough, or show wear from use and multiple resharpenings that original dimensions have to be guessed at to some degree ).

There are other good makers out there like A&A and custom makers that are also very accurate in period design and some like Leo Todeschini also seem to give a period look to their swords and other weapons or kit. ( In period some irregularities of dimensions or finish didn't seem to bother them, even for high end weapons. Modern tastes are for greater perfection in symmetry and finish ).

http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/index.htm

The Eared Dagger ( Lower one ) was made by Leo for me as a custom order:
http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/knives-military/ea...knives.htm

Fabrice Cognot is also a maker who emphasizes period look and methods of making and tries to avoid a modern CNC machined look.

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=25993

If looking at less expensive swords it's good to examine originals and the high end reproductions for style and authenticity and then chose those less expensive makers that seem to be closest to these.

Now if one can afford an Albion or another of the top production swords it usually a better choice as well as looking at custom makers with a good reputation for quality work.

I also own many of the less expensive swords by Del Tin and other medium priced and decent quality makers.

With some makers it's a question of being selective because some of their product line can be acceptable to very good and other's in their line not as much. Some can be good with a little DIY upgrades like replacing chunky or ugly grip furniture, refinishing to hide modern and machine looking grind lines or turning a mirror polished finish into a more period appropriate satin finish. ( This last partly a question of personal preferences
).

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Wilhelm V.S.




Location: USA
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen A Cleeton wrote:
On a scale of one to ten, maybe a three. If it is truly based on an original, I'd be interested in seeing the example this reproduction is modeled after.

Cheers

GC


I was looking at this same sword myself. Care to elucidate on your 3/10 rating? I am quite curious.
Thanks.

Deus Vult!
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Guy H.




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Jean, you mentioned Del Tin. How about this one: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Half+Sword

Would it be ok for Sigmund armor?
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Greg Ballantyne




Location: Maryland USA
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm far from the most knowledgeable or experienced around here, but I have bought two swords in the $300 price range in the last 14 months. One was a DSA. The other was at least twice the sword as the DSA, made by Legacy Arms Gen 2. I'm not recommending that you buy from any particular manufacturer, but at the appox. $300 price point there are significantly better choices than DSA (in my humble opinion).
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guy H. wrote:
Hey Jean, you mentioned Del Tin. How about this one: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Half+Sword

Would it be ok for Sigmund armor?


Can't say 100% if it would be good for Sigmund armour but my best guess would be yes. ( Late 15th century and German helps probably. Wink ).

Most Del Tins, but not all, tend to be overbuilt by maybe 10% to 15% because they are made blunt because of Italian laws about sharps but not too difficult to sharpen, and Kult of Athena does a good quality sharpening ( Although with a secondary bevel rather than an apple seed edge. Note not all period swords where apple seed edged, and many did use a secondary bevel ). Their leather scabbards are also a good idea if you decide to have it sharpened for at least basic storage and safety.

Note I have a couple of Del Tins I had sharpened or sharpened myself, but others I left blunt knowing that if I wanted to sharpen one it would be a question of a couple of evening of careful hand work with a diamond honeL The blunt edges are close or less than 2 mm wide so are safer if one doesn't want or have a scabbard.

Del Tin where also meant to be robust to be durable when used as stage props.

Personally I don't find my Del Tins to be that excessively heavy and seem to handle well enough for me, but certainly my Albions . A&A or custom swords tend toward more agile for their type.

I generally like the look of Del Tins and the prices do help accepting the design compromised in my opinion.

The DT5157 does seem like a very appealing and attractive sword to me.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wilhelm V.S. wrote:
Glen A Cleeton wrote:
On a scale of one to ten, maybe a three. If it is truly based on an original, I'd be interested in seeing the example this reproduction is modeled after.

Cheers

GC


I was looking at this same sword myself. Care to elucidate on your 3/10 rating? I am quite curious.
Thanks.

I don't blame you for being curious but if I really need to justify my opinion, perhaps it's time for you to take a big step back and do some comparison shopping, along with learning a bit more about swords in general. Cost wise, I would give it an even lower number for bang for the buck. Then again, there is a strong following for Darksword that actually like the swords.

I give this sword a three because it does have a hilt, blade and scabbard but fails to qualify as a good example of the genre. The blade isn't even worth discussing as "period", so other components get slightly better marks.

Cheers

Gc

BTW, I shopped for swords for some time in the 1990s before even narrowing down a selection, then by price. All were swords better thought out than this one. Historical was at the top of my criteria. The Darksword Gothic fails in that respect.
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Guy H.




Location: Texas
Joined: 09 Mar 2011

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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There are so many "choices". I currently own this: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword194.html and I really like it. I was thinking of having Sonny at Valiant redo the grip in a 1/2 wire wrap. He already did a nice wood core scabbard for it in black leather & simple chape. I'm just not sure if it would pass with my armor. i am not looking for 100% match to the armor but would like it close. Any thoughts on that combination?
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guy H. wrote:
There are so many "choices". I currently own this: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword194.html and I really like it. I was thinking of having Sonny at Valiant redo the grip in a 1/2 wire wrap. He already did a nice wood core scabbard for it in black leather & simple chape. I'm just not sure if it would pass with my armor. i am not looking for 100% match to the armor but would like it close. Any thoughts on that combination?


That's kind of funny because it is one I would love myself. Why on earth you would even be looking at the DS sword is a bit of a mystery to me now. Were you planning on making it better through sending it out to be reworked? I would think there is still a whole market of blades to build on and this DS is not one I would start with.

FWIW and I don't mean to start a flurry of "is not...is too", I traded into a Del Tin 5157 and it ois actually a pretty fair sword. The 5155 is a tad shorter and gets better reviews but I rather like the reach after getting used to it. It is actually an inch taller than the A&A German Bastard and mroe than a pound lighter. However, I see the 5155 and 5157 are up around the $500 mark now.. These two swords I would put as more like a 7-8 out of 10, as much more historically plausible and overall quality.

Here with a Conyers falchion, the A&A GBS and the Del Tin 2160 GBS In more perspective with two cutting swords in the 47"-48" range.

(too many GBS) Wink

To put that in value perspective, I traded an A&A sword I had paid $350 for and the person trading the 5157 actually lost a bit of money. 2003 retail and shipped direct from Italy was closer to $400.

Cheers

GC



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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guy H. wrote:
There are so many "choices". I currently own this: http://www.arms-n-armor.com/sword194.html and I really like it. I was thinking of having Sonny at Valiant redo the grip in a 1/2 wire wrap. He already did a nice wood core scabbard for it in black leather & simple chape. I'm just not sure if it would pass with my armor. i am not looking for 100% match to the armor but would like it close. Any thoughts on that combination?



If you want the sword to match the armour I think you should consider that a Knight of the period could have a sword from another region or style out of personal choice and preference, but if you want to be more consistent a German armour of the period with a German sword of the same period or " give and take " 25 to 50 years before the armour: There wouldn't be a strict " style rule " that " X " armour had to go with " Y " sword.

Your A&A English Longsword would certainly be plausible with it's original grip or a grip change/upgrade in my opinion.

So find a sword of German style of the approximate period of the style you really like the look of. Wink Big Grin Cool

A Knight could own many swords: A one hander, a bastard sword, a really big two hander, and if at the end of the 15th century or beginning of the 16th maybe one of those newfangled complex hilt proto-Rapier side swords for civilian wear.

Lots of choices but fewer restrictions on type than you seem to assume in my opinion.

Hope that this is helpful. Cool

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Colt Reeves





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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wilhelm V.S. wrote:
I was looking at this same sword myself. Care to elucidate on your 3/10 rating? I am quite curious.
Thanks.


I am far from an expert myself, but one thing that stands out glaringly at a mere glance is the ricasso. Unless I am mistaken, such a thing was unheard of, and would be somewhat like finding a Model T with modern tires. Other than that, the overall proportions just rub me the wrong way, with the short little crossguard and the shallow fuller. (What type is this thing trying to be anyway? The hilt makes me think of ridged blades without fullers like the Albion Regent.)

In short, although I've never bought a sword in that price range, let alone a DSA, it is my opinion that it just doesn't look enough like a "real" sword to justify the price.

On the other hand, DSA products are known for durability, so if that's more important than historical accuracy...



Edit: Since DSA products suffer from a lack of historical accuracy and the forums here are full of people who fixate on historical accuracy, these kinds of responses really shouldn't surprise you. ;D

"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
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Guy H.




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Glen, thanks for posting the pics. I was looking at the DSA stuff only due to looking at items on KOA. I am totally unfamiliar with DSA stuff.
I see you have a Del Tin....just simply sell me yours cheap Wink That would make it much ezer for me. I am still very new so Jean is right...I kinda limited my self. I have found armor is not as forgiving as weapons in time period/era use. I am not really going to do anything with the items....just play in them at ren. fests/living history etc. but I dont want junk. I do want to look relatively period though. Thanks for the other ideas on the swords. I Still may get the partial wire wrap done on the AA I have.
As a side note, if anyone has a sword type that I'm looking for that they want to sell...by all means let me know.
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 8:23 pm    Post subject: Re: How historically accurate is this sword?         Reply with quote

Guy H. wrote:
Just wondering how accurate this sword is. I am still searching for a "gothic" type sword for my Sigmund armour.

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...thic+Sword


The guard and pommel are similar to forms found on extand Geman/Swiss swords of the 15th century. Albion's Regent, as mentioned, is based off similar swords. The DSA is less elegantly done in that regard. The hilt looks clunky.

The blade is a mish-mash of things and is not particularly historical, especially given the era implied by the hilt.

Here are two historical hilts with fishtail pommels.




Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Raman A




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Wed 23 May, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guy H. wrote:
So its a stinker. I'm open to examples that are correct. Any suggestions?


if money is no object I'm a firm believer that you cannot do better than an Albion.
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/johnsson/...-cluny.htm

any of albion's next generation XVa or XVIIIb style swords would be right at home with your style armor, though.
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2012 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does it have to be specifically late 15th-century German? If not, I don't see why a sufficiently generic sword like the Hanwei Tinker Bastard wouldn't fit the bill:

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...tard+Sword
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Greg Ballantyne




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My opinion is quite limited, I only own two swords. One of them however is a DSA. Perhaps they're known for durability, but they are known to me for shabbiness. I believe there are better choices, even at the same price point. You might like the picture, but far less likely that you like the sword once its in your hands. At least that was my experience.
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Roger Hooper




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PostPosted: Thu 07 Jun, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about this late 15th C sword, EP45 from Arma Bohemia in the Czech Republic? I don't have personal experience with them, but Arma Bohemia has a good reputation on this website.


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