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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Wed 09 May, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Another 'Helmes' Sword in the Works         Reply with quote

Custom Bladesmith Jeff Helmes has been on a roll lately, turning out my ‘Korsoygaden’ sword http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=24499, Tim Lison’s Ingelrii sword http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=24972 and a few more pieces that have turned up on these pages. After this success I couldn’t help asking him to work on another project for me.

The new project is another sword from Musée de l'Hôtel Sandelin, Saint-Omer, France. It is a big XII (about 35” blade) with a longish (4.5”) single hand grip, a very long (~11”) curved cross and a most unusual pommel. At first glance I thought the pommel was some kind of primitive scent-stopper, but its actually diamond shaped in profile, with very deep truncated conical pyramids on either side. I don’t know how to classify this pommel. Overall, this sword looks to me like it would date to about 1300, near the end of my primary period of interest at this time. It also has some inscriptions, which I will get to later.

Altogether, a most majestic and interesting sword, but to my knowledge has never been replicated or appeared in any popular English language book.

I found the sword on these web-sites, which contain several copyrighted pictures of the sword:

http://moteur.musenor.com/application/moteur_...omAuteur=1
http://moteur.musenor.com/application/moteur_...omAuteur=1

Here is a google translation of the written material on the second page (sorry, my school French has faded).

“Sword
Germany
14th century
alloy steel
Blade: Length 106.5 cm in width by 5 cm Guard width by 27.2 cm
Registration: Registration and brand: + NEDEHER EWEDENI + + and on the reverse: design of scrolls and foliage
Archaeology, Ethnology
Sword of size. Headed two truncated pyramids fused at their bases. Flat triangular silk. Care quillons long and curved towards the blade square. Long blade with low enrollment and ventral gutter on both sides.
Photo credits: © St Omer Hotel Sandelin Museum, YB/M3C
Saint-Omer, Musee de l'Hotel Sandelin
Inventory number: 2486
Acquisition date: 1837”

This sword also appeared in the recent Cluny Museum Display. The Vikverir web-site has some wonderfully detailed pictures at the bottom of this page and the top of the next one: http://www.vikverir.no/ressurser/usages_mythe...amp;page=9

If anyone knows more about this sword, we would be most pleased to hear about it.

Jeff has the steel and says he will start working on it Friday – can’t wait to see his progress shots and post them here for all to see!


Last edited by J.D. Crawford on Wed 09 May, 2012 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 09 May, 2012 4:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Awesome... Can't wait to see it come together.

Once you have it in hand, you're gonna have to give a review of how it feels. I've often wondered about long crosses on one handed swords.

Definitely a good choice!

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Wed 09 May, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow! What a great choice, Moriarty. I just love the pommel and the cross. Both kinda offbeat examples. The blade seems to be a pretty standard big XII but with the hilt, it will be superb! Another excellent choice! This is going to look great next to your type O from A&A! Can't wait to see the first pics...
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Wed 09 May, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
This is going to look great next to your type O from A&A!


Good eye, Tim. Two big Germanic XIIs with long crosses (one straight, one curved) and large unusual pommels (one cresent, one double-pyramid). I think they will make a nice pairing. I'm not of German descent myself but always seem to be drawn toward German weaponry...from middle ages to WW2.

Here's the A&A sword for comparison: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=22763
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And so it begins...first with the forging of the blank, and then the edges.


 Attachment: 111.5 KB
P5100333m.JPG
Forged Blank

 Attachment: 110.46 KB
P5110335m.JPG
Now with edges


Last edited by J.D. Crawford on Tue 15 May, 2012 5:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 11:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Very cool.... Bet you're excited to see it start to come together finally
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
Very cool.... Bet you're excited to see it start to come together finally


Watching the sword come together is definitely half the fun, as you will see Robin. But I checked and its only been 6 weeks since we agreed to this particular sword, so Jeff is still responding quite quickly. I have an order with another company waiting more than a year and some people have lines more than 5 years...I couldn't take that myself.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Robin Smith wrote:
Very cool.... Bet you're excited to see it start to come together finally


Watching the sword come together is definitely half the fun, as you will see Robin. But I checked and its only been 6 weeks since we agreed to this particular sword, so Jeff is still responding quite quickly. I have an order with another company waiting more than a year and some people have lines more than 5 years...I couldn't take that myself.
Yeah, I would forget that I had put my name on the list after 5 years...

The more I stare at that cross, the more it grows on me...

So you having Jeff do the + NEDEHER EWEDENI + + inlay?

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is a very interesting sword! I can't wait to see it finished!
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robin Smith wrote:
So you having Jeff do the + NEDEHER EWEDENI + + inlay?


Yes, but Jeff says its an engraving = easier on my pocket book.
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Robin Smith wrote:
So you having Jeff do the + NEDEHER EWEDENI + + inlay?


Yes, but Jeff says its an engraving = easier on my pocket book.


Pocket book be blowed, man! This is a sword that requires silver inlay...
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Honestly, with such a sword by such a smith, if I wouldn't have the money for inlay I also wouldn't want engraving, I would leave the blade plain. I wouldn't want to put something not very historical on an otherwise historically correct replica. Unless you are going with the story that it is an old sword and all the inlayed metal fell out and only engraving is left now. Wink
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You guys are very demanding! Well, I don't know much about inscriptions, I just want it to be like the museum piece, only like new. Check out this photo. It looks to me like the letters are scratched into the blade. I suppose some soft metal could have fallen out of it. (Oh no, don't tell me gold, I have mouths to feed). What do you think? I will ask Jeff again what he thinks. http://moteur.musenor.com/images/saintomer/g2018742_3.jpg
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 6:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm reluctant to wade in here, because I really don't know if engraving was used in period or not... In fact, prior to starting my research for my project with Jeff, I hadn't realized just how common inlays were.

I suppose the key here is to find another example or two of engraved blades. If that can be done then its likely that was engraved. If not I would then assume its from inlay that fell out.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 7:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK thanks for the input. Jeff is already looking into it with the museum and another sword scholar. I'll do my best (pocketbookwise) to make it historically correct, but I'd like to learn more before making a decision. -JD
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 7:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think I have seen or heard of a sword from that period with engraved letters without metal inlayed in the engraving. But that doesn't mean there were no such swords. But inlays really were popular in these times. And it doesn't have to be gold or silver, it can be bronze or something similar...
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sounds like a new fashion in medieval sword reconstruction is brewing - one sure to empty my pockets. Well, its always good to learn something new. Like I said, I'd prefer to go with what is historically correct, but in lieau of specific evidence on this sword will try for a balance of historical, esthetic and economic factors.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 9:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Sounds like a new fashion in medieval sword reconstruction is brewing - one sure to empty my pockets. Well, its always good to learn something new. Like I said, I'd prefer to go with what is historically correct, but in lieau of specific evidence on this sword will try for a balance of historical, esthetic and economic factors.
Well I think that is one advantage of NOT basing a sword on a specific original. It gives you a little more flexibility. I'm not saying go crazy and design and anachronistic fantasy blade. You can still have a reproduction that is very true to originals from that period without being based on one specific original, and that way you can have alittle more room if specifics are unavailable or to work around your budget.
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I know it'll add to the price, but silver inlay would really look great with this sword. I can't recall seeing an engraved sword without inlay but I'm no expert! If jeff were to leave the fuller a bit dark and polish the inlay it would really stand out...
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Sun 13 May, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tim Lison wrote:
I know it'll add to the price, but silver inlay would really look great with this sword. I can't recall seeing an engraved sword without inlay but I'm no expert! If jeff were to leave the fuller a bit dark and polish the inlay it would really stand out...


Well Tim, Peter Johnsson agrees with you, so who am I to argue? Jeff is going to do the inlay in fine silver.

You guys!!!
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