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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Standards, ie neck armor         Reply with quote

I am having difficulty researching the piece of neck armor known as a standard. Googling "mail standard" "standard armor" etc has been completely hopeless. Can anyone help me, please? In particular, I would like to know how the armor was constructed, when it was introduced and how long it continued in use. I am under the impression that the standard is a sort of padded collar, sometimes reinforced with mail or lames and sometimes with a bishops-mantle-like extension over the shoulders. Is this at all correct? Any info or points in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 2:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hi Scott, yes I can see the difficulty in googling mail standard. AFAIK a standard and a bishops mantle were the same thing, you might also try searching with the word pisane which is also another world meaning the same thing.
Éirinn go Brách
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Mark T




PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 3:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try this!

Happy

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you both for your quick replies. Mark, as you can see, I am not very computer savvy, but thanks to forumnites like you I am learning a little bit all the time. Stephen, thank you for the synonym, I will see if that helps with my research. I still have a lot of research to do to fully answer my questions, but now at least I am off to a good start.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 10:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the bishop's mantle is a much larger thing, covering to the shoulders.
There's some standard info. here: http://www.historiclife.com/Armory.htm

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Tue 03 Apr, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

They seem to first appear during the 14th century, and are worn under aventails on bascinets, or with great helms.
Some seem to have a leather lining folded over the top, while others seem to take to form of late 15th century designs.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/charl...815/large/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/roger...170/large/
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 9:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean, thank you for the link, that is exactly what I needed. I want to make some authentic solid/riveted mail, but I want to start with something relatively small, so I figured a standard would be perfect. Now I have some very detailed instructions!
I thought that there was some distinction between a standard and a bishop's mantle, I just wasn't sure what it was. I have been under the impression that "standard" was a period term but "bishop's mantle" was not. Is that correct?

Thank you Jojo for the links to the effigies. Too bad the standard only started being used in the 14th c, I was hoping for a piece of kit that would fit in with both a 15th c and a 12th-13th c kit. Oh well, ces't la vie.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?showtopic=26698
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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len: Woah! That is a fantastic thread! Thanks so much.

Scott: I think David Teague had a thread over at The Armour Archive that showed how he contstructed his standard; I've just had a quick look but couldn't find it ... see how you go!

Mark

PS Wasn't meaning to be a smart-alec with the 'Let Me Google That For You' link - I just find Google's domain-specific search can give you not only targeted results, but also allows the use of inverted commas to get compound / combined word sets.

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Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This looks like a good standard to study (at bottom). http://www.britishplate.org.uk/under_the_armour.htm You can see where the expansion rings are put in a few rows up between the points. Wish they had a picture of it being worn, but it looks like it would fit right.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jojo, nice find on the second image. That's the earliest standard I've seen. The first one might be attached to the shirt?
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Jojo Zerach





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 9:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Jojo, nice find on the second image. That's the earliest standard I've seen. The first one might be attached to the shirt?


With the 1st one it's hard to say, but it could be a standard with the surcoat overlapping it.
Since these standards/collars always seem visible in 14thC sources when they're not wearing their bascinets/aventails, I figure 14th century knights probably had very good neck protection indeed.
(A hanging layer of mail on the aventail , and a padded layer of mail underneath.)
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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a thread that shows pics of one of the standards that David Teague assembled: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...t=standard
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Schallern sind sehr sexy!
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Johan K





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Everything posted here so far only seems to be padded at the collar. I was wondering what your thoughts are on a piece that is fully lined, such as this one:

http://www.diu-minnezit.de/realie_vollansicht...ellermarke
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Jens Boerner




Location: Erlangen, Germany
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2012 2:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have built this maille collar. The lining of the lower part is pure speculative (the text mentions that). I was simply fed up with my doublet becoming stained. The upper part bases on an original.
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
the bishop's mantle is a much larger thing, covering to the shoulders.
There's some standard info. here: http://www.historiclife.com/Armory.htm


Scott Woodruff wrote:
Sean, thank you for the link, that is exactly what I needed. I want to make some authentic solid/riveted mail, but I want to start with something relatively small, so I figured a standard would be perfect. Now I have some very detailed instructions!



That is my website, my work of advice is this; were I starting today to make a standard I would not make a round one with expanding rows like my example on there I would go with the triangles attached together look of the example I put up from the British museum. All the extant examples I have found have been made of triangular shapes instead of being totally round I just didn't have much research when I started out.

James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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Scott Woodruff





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark, no prob, I didn't take it as anything but helpful.
James, I am not entirely sure what you mean in your last post. Do you simply mean that if you were to do it again, you would do one with dags? Or do you mean that the body should be made up of triangular pieces fitted together?
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's one made with squares and triangles http://www.tula-svarga.ru/catalog/artefacts/e...a/245.html
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Thu 05 Apr, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That 6 in 1 collar would be more like the one here http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...;p=2109048
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James Barker




Location: Ashburn VA
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PostPosted: Fri 06 Apr, 2012 4:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
James, I am not entirely sure what you mean in your last post. Do you simply mean that if you were to do it again, you would do one with dags? Or do you mean that the body should be made up of triangular pieces fitted together?


The body is typically make of triangles/wedges that fit together to make the tapered shape vs. the expanding circle I did a number of years ago. If I was starting over that is the way I would go.

James Barker
Historic Life http://www.historiclife.com/index.html
Archer in La Belle Compagnie http://www.labelle.org/
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