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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
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Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 2:42 pm    Post subject: Custom Wisby Mail Shoulders & Arms         Reply with quote

I am interested in acquiring a mail shirt similar to the one shown here:



My understanding is that this style of long sleeve/short-torso shirt was found at Wisby and was worn under a coat of plates. This makes sense as the mail would protect where the coat of plates does not, such as the arms, or where the coat lacks comprehensive plate coverage, such as the shoulders. The wearer would benefit by the reduction in weight of "redundant" mail. Is this accurate?

My intent is to wear a shirt like this under my own coat of plates and plate arms.

If anyone can recommend vendors who might make something similar please let me know. An option I have considered is purchasing a riveted GDFB hauberk and cutting it down. Thoughts?

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Gregory J. Liebau




Location: Dinuba, CA
Joined: 27 Nov 2004

Posts: 669

PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would definitely buy a regular hauberk and cut it down. That way, you can have lots of extra mail sections to play with, know exactly how long you want it cut and do it yourself and probably save a few bucks compared to finding anyone who'd actually custom make you half a hauberk anyway...

Fun project, whatever comes of it. Good luck!

-Gregory
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just curious but have you verified this was used at Wisby?

I admit it has been years and years since I read the entire book but I do not recall this ever being in the finds.

That said depending on the level of fidelity you are going for it might not be an issue.

RPM
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Likes: 14 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Just curious but have you verified this was used at Wisby?
I admit it has been years and years since I read the entire book but I do not recall this ever being in the finds.
That said depending on the level of fidelity you are going for it might not be an issue.
RPM


Hey Randall,
I only recently bought a copy of the book and am in the process of verifying what I have been told. I'll post what I find.

Have you heard of this type of mail in other contexts than Wisby?

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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T. Arndt




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Likes: 14 pages
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 226

PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found another thread where this type of short mail shirt is discussed:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20936

Also here are some more pictures
http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/drae...rynja.html

In Armor from the Battle of Wisby 1361 there is a brief discussion of a short mail shirt that was found starting on page 106, although it seems the author thought the lower part of the shirt may have simply been missing.

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA) - La Crosse
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate

“Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?” -Juvenal
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes I remember the last time this came up it also sort of seemed sort of like this question was never resolved but I did not have time to respond..

I have seen some accounts on pieces of mail aside from the normal ones of hauberks, haubergeons and coifs. The issue is we have little evidence on how these were used. As well evidence of short mail shirts is very rare and may simply be referring to things we know were used such as a maid thigh to waist length haubergeon. Until the 15th century we have no clear evidence of this type of arrangement and indeed all the written evidence I have seen points to hauberks and haubergeons under armour of plate when used or no mail at all. Now this would be a logical step somewhere between but all we seem to have that is evidence for this is Thordmann's short mail coat and here is what the Books states.

So in Wisby Thordmann states that all the mail shirts but two were so disintegrated that they were difficult to study. (P.106) The he states there are two exceptions to this, one being the short shirt in question. He states it was long sleeved and went down to the pit of the stomach, so right down past the sternum perhaps mid way between the navel (31cm, from top of the shoulders, about a foot). The issue though is he figures it went down lower at one point due to decomposition. So you have something that descends a foot down your chest But he concludes the interpretation on this 'short' shirt by saying it was probably longer originally. (p.107). If we use the 31cm down then a gent of maybe 5'7" or 5'8" would find this around his navel, perhaps an inch or so above it. If we assume it was any longer at one point as Thordmann suggests sounds like we are looking at a waist length shirt not a bra type thing with long sleeves as people keep theorizing.

Even the picture on the other post shows a waist length shirt like armour. I just do not think the common reenactor interpretation is right how it is being done.

RPM
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 31 Mar, 2012 1:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The above looks like it could have been part of an arming doublet - designed to allow pieces of plate to be strapped over it.
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