Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Looking for early examples of type 5 crossguards. Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 601

PostPosted: Thu 15 Mar, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Looking for early examples of type 5 crossguards.         Reply with quote

I am looking for any examples of Oakeshott type 5 crossguards dating to 1000-1200. Oakeshott says that they are rare before 1300 but that they do exist. He mentions a Gicelin sword in Hamburg as an example. Also, the Albion Templar is a 12th century style sword with a type 5 guard, so I assume that there must be an original out there which inspired it. Any pics or a point in the right direction would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,229

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are the two that I know of:



View user's profile Send private message
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 601

PostPosted: Fri 16 Mar, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you Luka. That is just what I am looking for. What is the provenance of the INNI sword? Based on pommel and inscription I am guessing 12th c? Are those non-ferrous bubble-letter inscriptions or iron? I don't know a whole lot about inscriptions, but it seems that most n-f inscriptions I have seen are just thin line letters, so if those are n-f bubble-letters I find that very interesting. Thanks again Luka, your taste in swords is similar to my own and it seems like you are usually the first person there to help me out.
Edit: Is that an INNI inscription on both sides? Looking in "Archaeology of Weapons" I found a "Gicelinmefecit" with similar INNI inscription on back(the famous Shaftsbury sword, another 12thc sword with unusual cross.) Oakeshott's illustration looks exactly like the inscription on the sword you posted and he says it is iron.
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,229

PostPosted: Mon 19 Mar, 2012 3:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I unfortunately doesn't really know where I got this picture and I know nothing about the sword, but I think it appears in Records of the medieval sword but I don't have it home right now and I will not have it this week. But based on inscription, the blade is almost certainly early 12th century and fittings too probably based on the pommel style. It is an interesting sword and I would love to know more about it.
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,229

PostPosted: Sun 15 Apr, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I finally got my Records with me and I found the "INNI" sword in it... Oakeshott dated it to around 1100, it was found in Hauko, Hakiala, Finland, blade is fragment and he calls it Xa and that is the surest guess although the blade is not complete. The confusing thing is that he calls the crossguard type 1 although it flares to the ends... He doesn't says what the inlay metal is.
View user's profile Send private message
Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,499

PostPosted: Sun 15 Apr, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Scott,

Regarding the inlay. I can't say for certain but I would surely imagine it to be iron as the appearance is so similar to other INOMINIDOMINI swords. The letters would be steel inlayed into the iron core of the blade.
View user's profile Send private message
Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 6 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,507

PostPosted: Sun 15 Apr, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a few more from the period you specified...


 Attachment: 29.7 KB
brazillllly.jpg


 Attachment: 21.91 KB
ingelrikb5.jpg


 Attachment: 6.11 KB
year 1150 94cm Xa.jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 601

PostPosted: Sun 15 Apr, 2012 11:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you all, those are some great pics!
Tim, I am especially interested in the sword on the right in the second pic. Is that an Oakeshott type R pommel? Do you have any more info about it?
View user's profile Send private message
Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 6 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,507

PostPosted: Mon 16 Apr, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott-

Sorry, no more info about that sword. It is really cool. It looks like a type R to me, but the pic isn't that great. You might try to translate the text. I believe it is Polish...
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,229

PostPosted: Mon 16 Apr, 2012 3:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No, it's not Polish, it's Croatian, my language. I would love to know where you got this. About the sword on the right it just says it is an Ingelri sword, and that Ingelri was a fankish workshop that produced swords between years 950 and 1000.
View user's profile Send private message
Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 6 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,507

PostPosted: Mon 16 Apr, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka-

I don't recall where I got it. Thanks for the translation. I had thought it said the right sword was from 950 and the left was from 1000. I got the picture because I love the left hand sword with the brazil nut and weird guard. Does it say if the sword on the left is an Ingelrii? Just curious. I wonder if the sword on the right isn't a old blade remounted? If the pommel is a type R and the guard is a style 5 it seems a bit late for an Ingelrii blade from 950...? Weird.
View user's profile Send private message
Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Likes: 7 pages

Posts: 2,229

PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 3:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

For the left sword it just says that it is from Bordou workshop, I don't know how they concluded that and do they mean "Bordeaux" or what. I agree that the right one is rehilted if it really is Ingelri. But without knowing where the picture is from it's hard to say how accurate anything of this is.
View user's profile Send private message
Tim Lison




Location: Chicago, Illinois
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 6 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,507

PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Luka. I wonder if the left one doesn't have a later cross... Seems a bit too unusual to be original.
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 601

PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Iirc, Kazakavecius shows some very early type R's in his book on Baltic swords. Not earlier than 1100 though. Whatever its story is, I love that sword. I just finished rough-forging a type R pommel and putting the finishing touches on a blade that looks almost identical to that one, now all I need is a curved, flared cross.
View user's profile Send private message
J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
Joined: 25 Dec 2006

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,597

PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Woodruff wrote:
Iirc, Kazakavecius shows some very early type R's in his book on Baltic swords. Not earlier than 1100 though. Whatever its story is, I love that sword. I just finished rough-forging a type R pommel and putting the finishing touches on a blade that looks almost identical to that one, now all I need is a curved, flared cross.


This is getting off topic, but if you guys like that type R pommel, check out this one. Its dated to 1250 and the blade alone is said to be 97 x 5.7CM.

http://xxx.xxx/uploads/2011/euro-swords/knight-sword.jpg
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 601

PostPosted: Tue 17 Apr, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Awesome! I personally don't mind a little off-topic if it is something that cool. Maybe we could re-name the topic "type 5 crosses and type R pommels 1000-1300 A.D." The dimensions of that blade are almost identical to one of those that I am looking to hilt. Is it me, or is that pommel subtly faceted?
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Looking for early examples of type 5 crossguards.
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum