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Spenser T.




Location: West coast, Canada
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Antique/Historical Basket hilt PoB?         Reply with quote

Hey,

I've been searching for examples of specs on historical ( hopefully) scots but english or irish basket hilted swords would be interesting as well. I havn't been able to find examples of what range the points of balance lie within.
Any antique owners or experts with any examples? I'd guess 3-4 inches from the cross but i've been wrong before.

Tapadh leat airson do thým is freagairt
thanks for your time & response
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you scroll down in this thread I provided measurements of my English basket hilt:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=7377&highlight=
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Spenser T.




Location: West coast, Canada
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed 01 Feb, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

beautiful sword. I love the detailed statistics you've provided. Thank you for sharing with me.
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Thomas McDonald
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Location: New Hampshire
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2012 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: Antique/Historical Basket hilt PoB?         Reply with quote

Hi Spenser T.

I've recorded stats on quite a few antique baskethilts thru the years and have found that the POB vary from sword to sword. 3-4" inches is a good guess but you do find pieces that have the POB closer to the hilt as well as ones that are pushing 6" inches out from the hilt. Obviously the POB depends on many factors in the swords construction.

Researching baskethilts in Glasgow I noted the POB on 2 Ribbon-hilts ... one had a POB at 5 1/2" another at 4 1/2".
A signed Thomas Gemmil of Glasgow came in at 2 1/2" while the POB on a signed James Grant of Stirling was at 3" inches.

I do have detailed stats on several that I studied, including the ones above, but am under obligation from the museums not to publicly post pictures & information of them.

Checkout some of my albums on this site, as there is much information there, as well as my Pictutetrail site at this link:
http://picturetrail.com/mactom

Take care, Mac

Spenser T. wrote:
Hey,

I've been searching for examples of specs on historical ( hopefully) scots but english or irish basket hilted swords would be interesting as well. I havn't been able to find examples of what range the points of balance lie within.
Any antique owners or experts with any examples? I'd guess 3-4 inches from the cross but i've been wrong before.

Tapadh leat airson do thým is freagairt
thanks for your time & response

'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Spenser T.




Location: West coast, Canada
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Likes: 11 pages

Posts: 60

PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2012 10:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for all the info, Mac.
Your picture collection is quite extensive and impressive, I am jealous of how many antique swords you've been acquainted with. It was the vince evans section that I drooled over for the longest however!
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Lewis Ballard




Location: Houston, TX
Joined: 27 Dec 2009

Posts: 66

PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Although I am sliding into this late, allow me to add my thanks for the information as well. At times I want to shake museums by the lapel, and cry out, "Length and weight aren't enough! Where's the distal taper information, where's the point of balance?" (I never do that, though.)
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Thomas McDonald
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Location: New Hampshire
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PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Lewis

Yes, it is frustrating that the informational "guts" of these swords are not put out there for our quick & easy reference !
But I suppose most museums have many more bits on thier plate than to worry about the little details that only a small fraction of folks, like us, would care or even want to know about . 'eh !

Any road ..... just to give a couple of thickness specs!

The signed Gemmil basket-hilt I mentioned above had a blade thickness of 5.5 mm at the hilt and a thickness of 1.5mm 1" inch back from the blades tip.
The signed Grant basket-hilted backsword was 8mm thick at the forte to 1mm thick at the tip.

Things are, in the words of John & Paul, "Getting better all the time" so have faith ... oneday the definitive baskethilt book will be published and answer all the bits we've all wanted to know !!

Peace, Mac

Lewis Ballard wrote:
Although I am sliding into this late, allow me to add my thanks for the information as well. At times I want to shake museums by the lapel, and cry out, "Length and weight aren't enough! Where's the distal taper information, where's the point of balance?" (I never do that, though.)

'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
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Lewis Ballard




Location: Houston, TX
Joined: 27 Dec 2009

Posts: 66

PostPosted: Thu 02 Feb, 2012 10:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mac:

I profit from your information, and your courtesy in providing it, sir.

Good gravy, that's some distal taper!
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Spenser T.




Location: West coast, Canada
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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Posts: 60

PostPosted: Sat 04 Feb, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd like to throw out a new question here:
What's the (or some) historically correct way(s) to holding/gripping a basket hilt?
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Neal Matheson




Location: sussex UK
Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sat 04 Feb, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Spenser,
It's pretty hard to hold most basket hilts with anything other than a standard "hammer grip". I have read [some fencers talk about using a sabre grip with a basket but in my experience this is not feasible. The Del Tin schiavona has a nice thumb rest but I don't recall this feature on the antique schiavonas I have held.
From George Silver we can get the idea that some felt the basket hilt lacked in the thrust due to the lack of finger rings or the ability to lay a thumb on the blade.
[/img]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

not much space in this pretty standard basket!
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Spenser T.




Location: West coast, Canada
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Likes: 11 pages

Posts: 60

PostPosted: Sat 04 Feb, 2012 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Neal,
A picture is worth a thousand words. Thanking you for your input.
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Neal Matheson




Location: sussex UK
Joined: 08 Feb 2009
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Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sat 04 Feb, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Spenser,
You are very welcome.
Neal
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Lewis Ballard




Location: Houston, TX
Joined: 27 Dec 2009

Posts: 66

PostPosted: Sat 04 Feb, 2012 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Neal's picture reveals, to me, one of two things: either I have dainty little ladyfingers, or the Cold Steel basket hilt is grossly oversized. (I suspect the latter.)

Sigh. I can recall the joy I felt when I ordered and then received the Cold Steel basket hilt, a joy which rapidly deteriorated when I attempted some very amateur "silverisms." (A "silverism" is, of course, an attempt to work through some of George Silver's forms.) Although lovely to look at---and lovelier the further away---the Cold Steel reproduction becomes less and less satisfactory the more I learn about originals. As regards distal taper, the CS version started thin and ended thick, in contrast to the numbers Mac quoted.

I had been enthusiastic, in the past, about ordering Mazansky, but my interest is more in the blade than in the basket itself. I shall take comfort in Mac's forecast of a definitive basket hilt book, to arrive sometime.
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Spenser T.




Location: West coast, Canada
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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Posts: 60

PostPosted: Sat 04 Feb, 2012 1:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am fairy certain at this point that the only way to obtain the "real thing" in a basket hilt is to save up 1500-2000$ and give a well reputed custom maker very specific instructions on exactly what you want. myself, I'm gonna need a real, well-paying job if i want to have this kind of cash handy.

Here's to first-world problems
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GG Osborne





Joined: 21 Mar 2006

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Posts: 474

PostPosted: Sat 04 Feb, 2012 7:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I might suggest something from Armour Class. They are semi-custom and the "S" hilt in particular seems well-balanced and the grip is about right for folks with 21st C handsize (although this is a matter of debate among forumites!) Some also feel the baldes are a bit springy, but I personally find them excellent. There was a used "S" hilt for sale on the Forum. You might give it a look.
"Those who live by the sword...will usually die with a huge, unpaid credit card balance!"
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Neal Matheson




Location: sussex UK
Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 145

PostPosted: Sun 05 Feb, 2012 3:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,
I have really pretty small hands. I like armour class swords too but frankly find the customer service none too good. They are great to deal with but you will wait, and wait for your sword. Their blades are a good fit for many historical swords I have handled, for the price point they are great and have been considerbaly better weapons than some custom pieces I have handled.
Like a few people on this forum I made a rather decent weapon from a hanwei hilt and an armour class blade.
Neal
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Todd Salazar





Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Spenser,

The POB on my John Allan glasgow style basket hilt (circa 1740) with it's Andrea Ferara blade is about 2 1/4" from the cross.

Thanks,
Todd
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Todd Salazar





Joined: 03 Dec 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 79

PostPosted: Mon 13 Feb, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, my Andrea Ferara broadsword blade is 3.175 mm thick at the hilt and 0.79375 mm thick 1" back from the blades tip. Because of these specs, I really can't express to you just how extremely flexible this broadsword blade is. I'm not sure but the blade thicknesses that Mac is refering to above might be backsword blades. I believe that it is important to distinguish what type of blade(s) we are talking about here. I also forgot to add that my broadsword blade only has two fullers that runs for only about 1/4 of the total length of the blade. It's amazing that this historical blade has survived in one piece this long!

Thanks,
Todd
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Spenser T.




Location: West coast, Canada
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Likes: 11 pages

Posts: 60

PostPosted: Tue 14 Feb, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Todd,
I am envious of your antique ferrara bladed basket hilt.
Must be nice to wake up knowing you own something like that.
I don't think anyone would object if you were to post some pictures of it.

-Spenser
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