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Ju Ye




Location: australia
Joined: 21 Sep 2011

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jan, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: what different between cold roll and spring steel in joustin         Reply with quote

here always have 3 main steel be used in armour- mild, cold rolled, spring steel. i know the spring steel is best now, but it's expensive too. and mild steel looks worst in these three steel. how about cold rolled ? is it good for jousting too? and i saw there have a high-carbon steel armour in historic enterprises, is the high-carbon steel better than spring steel ?

Happy

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Ben Anbeek
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Jan, 2012 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hi ju Ye

mild steel and cold rolled steel are the same, its basically cold rolled mild steel.
you also have hot rolled mild steel this has a black/blue oxide scale.
for more information see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_%28metalworking%29

spring steel is a high-carbon steel.

so historic enterprises is probably using a different kind of high-carbon steel.
but there armors are great.

remember the price for spring is about 50% higher butt it will last about three times longer.
especially with jousting(the hard feral hits)
so in the end it is cheaper.

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Peter Lyon
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Jan, 2012 10:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Spring steel is a form of high carbon steel. Cold rolled steel may be slightly harder than hot rolled mild steel due to the rolling process work-hardening the surface, but that may be lost during the forming process to make it into armour. An experienced armourer would be able to tell you more.

I can give you my own personal experience on this. I wanted a late 14th white harness for jousting, and as I am tall, making it in mild steel thick enough to take the occassional big hit would have been very heavy - maybe 28kg/62lb for all the steel except the helmet (which I already had in thick mild steel). The breast plate would have to be over 2mm thick, probably starting 3mm to allow for loss of metal during forming and finishing, otherwise it would get pock marked by lance strikes. Spring steel meant a 1.6mm thickness was plenty for breast plate and shoulders (and Jeff Hedgecock at Historic Enterprises has the confidence to go thinner than that to make it as light as possible), and 1.2mm for arms and legs was also plenty thick enough. The comparative weight is about 20kg/44lb, so saving 8kg/18lb might not seem a lot, but it is easier on the horse, and a lot easier to move and walk in.

Part of that is that spring harness is generally better fitted to the wearer, as the armourers using spring tend to be much more experienced and specialised - spring is three (or more) times the price for a reason, it has to all be hot worked (cold working can split it quickly), heat treating is critical (not too hard, not too soft) and costs, and often parts have to be remade if they distort during heat treat (party countered by put braces ascross large pieces). With that experience you also get more knowledge of how to fit armour properly, which you may not get with lesser cost armours, and would be lucky to get with the generic cheap armour parts from India. It is the difference between buying an Armani suit of clothes, versus an off-the-peg suit, versus a cheap set of pants and jacket.

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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sat 21 Jan, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any pictures of the finished armour Peter? It sounds like a great harness.

I have found very little difference between the cold and hot rolled mild steel to be honest. Worked with these quite a bit but only carbon steel a few times. Depending on how the carbon steel arrives it might not need any heat until the heat treatment. I have made some vambraces and few other things from carbon steel and they seemed to work more or less the same.

I never drop the thickness less than historic ones as much as possible even if in carbon steel at least but have to admit I do not joust right now. I suspect that 1.2mm to 2mm or so should do though for jousting, maybe even 1mm if in a place not likely to take direct hits.


RPM
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Ju Ye




Location: australia
Joined: 21 Sep 2011

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan, 2012 2:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thx the info, it's great value to help me choose and put a custom order. I want to order a armour from bestarmour, the suit type is KA1.1, is there any advise and feedback for this armour? From the analysis of Ben, Peter & Randall, I have a plan for custom KA1.1, I will choose spring steel on B&B plates and add a spring steel shield on the left shoulder, Is it a good idea ? And is KA1.1 suit for jousting ? (i will add the lance rest )





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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Depending on the type of jousting you plan on doing, I would advise staying away from the sallet/bevor. I've jousted in them before, but would suggest that you go with a close helm to protect both your neck and head.


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Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
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Peter Lyon
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PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ditto what Lloyd said. I have seen enough photos of sallet/bevor in the joust, and they are not ideal - that combo was intended for field and battle use, not specialised for jousting. One of the main problems is that riders, leaning into the strike but keeping their chin up, often open a gap between bevor and helm; if the bevor is high enough to cover this, you could smash your nose against the edge if the helm gets hit. If you can afford it, a pair of helms would be ideal, one for the joust, one for foot combat.
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Ju Ye




Location: australia
Joined: 21 Sep 2011

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun 22 Jan, 2012 10:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks, guys. lol. the close helm is necessary part, this gothic armour is used in feet fighting more, and i will add & change some parts for jousting Happy and almost everyone recommend the spring steel, but the price is totally expensive, only choose spring steel on helm and B&B plates and add a guard/shield on left shoulder, is that a good idea ?:P
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2012 4:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is interesting.
I know that saving up for a spring-steel harness is the ideal (and certainly a pre-requisite if one want to go Pro'), but for some of us (like moi) that could take years and years of scrimping, saving, and sacrificing which, whilst absence makes the heart grow fonder, could kill the passion and will to joust dead. That being said, perhaps you don't want people who "give up" so easily being involved.
In my humble opinion, it seems that many have two (or more) kits over their lifetime, and for me at least whilst ones first kit might be out of Mild one can still strive for the lofty goal of Spring in due time, whilst getting saddle time, experience, and enthusiasm in the meantime.

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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
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PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you are in Australia and want to joust, here is where you should go to get your kit built:

http://www.redhartreproductions.com/

Luke is not only a great armourer, he is a jouster with a solid International reputation. He will be able to really help you out.

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
Super Proud Husband and Father!
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Ju Ye




Location: australia
Joined: 21 Sep 2011

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

LOL, i move to brisbane and want to learn jousting from luke, but when i move to brisbane, Luke move to norway Sad. Em, Luke's armour is awesome, but it's still expensive to me:) As a young man & noob, i still want a gothic to be my first custom armour, lol.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
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PostPosted: Wed 25 Jan, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

FYI, people in the steel industries used to refer to most of the material that springs were made from as 'medium carbon steel'. These days, many springs are cold-drawn, without heat treat, and are indeed made from high carbon steel (0.7% to1%) with a bit of manganese. I suppose one could do the last bit of forming cold, to approximate the cold-drawing, but it should be noted that CAR springs, which have to handle repeated severe impacts are made of MEDIUM carbon steels (5160 has been popular for American cars; the Japanese go lower, about 0.45%, which I think is about ideal for armour). It is not advisable to go beyond 0.5% carbon for armour, particularly stuff that will take severe impacts. The greater the carbon content, the more brittle it will tend to be. I once had to make a replacement spring for a German made bench shear (spring prevented the massive handle from falling down and killing the user Wink ) that had a spring made from what seemed to be something 0.9% or a little higher, which had cracked. I used something closer to 0.5%. That was over twenty years ago. Big Grin
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jan, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lloyd: I will someday buy a harness from Luke... And from Talerwin... And maybe a Greek getup from Manning, but alas at this time (and the forseeable future) it's just not viable. Sad

Ju Ye: I know, it's a bugger eh? Laughing Out Loud

James: Interesting. Hm. I'll be certain to look into 5160. Idea

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
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