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Olivier Jambot
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 Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 11:11 am Post subject: Two-handed falchion at XVth beginning ? |
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Hi there,
I need your help for a problem I have...
Did it have two handed falchion at the beginning of the XVth century ? Most people will answer "No, but at the beginning of the XVIth century, you have grossemesser etc..." or something like that. It's ok.
But... What's this ? 
P.A. 30 - Cy commencent les grans croniques de la genealogie des roys de France (search) (external link)
Folio: 57v
France 1380
Bibliothèque Municipal de Lyon
(guy at right)
Ms. fr. 77 - Histoire Romaine
Folio: 285v
Paris, France 1400 - 1420
Bibliothèque de Genève
Français 3 - Bible Historial
Folio: 173
Paris, France 1400 - 1425
Bibliothèque Nationale
Beginning of the XVth century
Français 267 - Ab Urbe Condita
Folio: 298v
Paris, France 1400 - 1425
Bibliothèque Nationale
Français 44 - Facta et Dicta Memorabilia
Folio: 165v
Paris, France 1400 - 1425
Bibliothèque Nationale
Harley 4431 - The Book of the Queen
Folio: 123
Paris, France 1410 - 1414
British Library
According to some others people I asked this, it seems to be an artistic convention, not something which could make a proof... 
What do you thing about that ?
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Bartek Strojek
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 11:58 am Post subject: |
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Similar problem like with Maciejowski Bible 'choppers', 14th century choppers with enclosed guard from "Romance of Alexander" and many other things...
We have some very interesting depictions here and there, but usually nothing more substantial, unfortunately.
Last edited by Bartek Strojek on Wed 18 Jan, 2012 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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Sjors B
Location: Zevenaar, The Netherlands Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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i do know of the kriegsmesser, wich is the twohanded version of grossmesser,
15th century kriegsmesser:
as for two handed falchions, i did found this original piece, picture from the musée d'armee in paris, couldn't find it dated thoug
member of the langenort school for European martial arts in Nijmegen (NL)
http://www.historicalshows.com/
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Olivier Jambot
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you, but.. I know these weapons, but kriegmesser is for late XVth-XVIth beginning... My question is for XVth beginning (and why not, late XIVth century) 
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Ralph Grinly
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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My two cent's worth, for what it's worth  Yes..manuscript illustrations are often artist's *imagination*, and shouldn't be taken as literally correct, or true. But much of what we know of medieval life is derived from these illustrations. There are several threads here discussing how swords were suspendedt a particular period, and much of what folk claim as correct is derived from manuscript illustration, and backed up by illustrations. Are we to accept that illustrations showing different suspension systems are correct..and yet reject similar illustrations showing weapons with as-yet-undocumented surviving examples ?? You can't have your cake, and eat it too.
Several of the manuscript illustrations shown at the start of this thread clearly show longish, falchion-like swords being wielded two handed and are of the period the author is questioning..the early XVth C. So I'd say Yes..there were 2 handed , falchion-like swords around at the time. I'm not suggesting they were common, lack of actual, surviving weapons makes it likely they were fairly uncommon.
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Olivier Jambot
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| Posted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | I don't recall if this is Oakeshott (Chivalry) or Blair (European/American):
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Do you have more informations about this one ? Any photography ?
It's dated early XVth, so it could be the only piece we have for what I'm looking for... (if the datation is right of course)
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Sean Flynt
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Einar Drønnesund
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jan, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Sjors B wrote: | i do know of the kriegsmesser, wich is the twohanded version of grossmesser,
15th century kriegsmesser:
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Wow, I love that. Thanks for posting. You wouldnt happen to have more pictures of that one would you? Do you know how long it is?
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D. Phillip Caron
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| Posted: Fri 20 Jan, 2012 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Does any recognize any of the other pieces in Elnar's picture above well enough to estimate the size of that two hander? At the bottom appears to be sturups. What are they, 5/6 inches across?
The first casualty of battle is bravado, the second is macho.
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Guillaume Vauthier
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| Posted: Thu 21 Jul, 2016 1:26 am Post subject: |
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Sorry to dig up this topic from grave after like 4 years - but lately I got some news about the Cordoba falchion.
I actually found (on a russian forum) a photograph of it, it seems like it was the main inspiration for the famous Laking drawing:
Picture here
It comes from the book Arms and Armour in Spain II: A Short Survey by Ada Bruhn de Hoffmeyer. In the book there's a (somewhat scarce) description of it:
| Quote: | | There exist, however, in the archaeological museum of Córdoba a falchion of a different type (Fig. 73), excellent in regard to conservation, found near to Córdoba in river Genil. This sword has a facetted pear-shaped pommel, horizontal and slightly S-shaped quillons and a long, solid single-edged blade, terminating in a yelman. In regard to blade it corresponds well with the so-called Thorpe-falchion in the Castle Museum of Norwich. This type of falchion, different to the Durham and the Catalan especimens, is probably—as said by Mr. R. Ewart Oakeshott about the Thorpe-falchion—of eastern origin. In regard to chronology of the Córdoba-falchion, its pommel and quillons indicate a period about the end of the 14th century. |
After that I decided to contact the Cordoba Archaeological Museum, asking for a picture. They sent me one, but unfortunately it was by the "official" and administrative way, and I'm not sure to be legally allowed to show it here. But there is a scale near the falchion on the picture, and total length can be estimated to ca. 92cm (with 70cm for blade, that was originally certainly around 72-73cm because of the broken tip).
So it looks like it was indeed a falchion that could be used with both hands!
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Pedro Paulo Gaião
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| Posted: Sun 20 Aug, 2023 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Time for a necromancy here.
Reason: I measured the Cordoba Falchion through a museum photograph, like our fellow member, and while there are no specs provided by the museum or visitor, this is the best we can have now:
Blade Length: c. 70,6cm
Clip-point length: c. 18,7cm
(The tip point was corroded, so it could be slighly longer, perhaps +0,6cm).
Blade width at crossguard: c. 4,4cm
Blade width after 20cm: 4,6cm
Blade width by the middle: c. 4,7cm
Blade width at the start of the clip-point: c. 5cm
Grip length: 13cm (+6,7cm of the pommel = 19,7cm)
Crossguard width: 22cm (inclination considered and measured accordingly).
Crossguard length: c. 2,4 -> 2cm (slightly tie-shaped, bigger at the ends and in the center),
Some thoughts: clearly from the Thorpe Falchion sub-group, although its blade is shorter, starts slimmer and doesn't increase as much as the actual Thorpe-river finding.
| Guillaume Vauthier wrote: | | Quote: | | This type of falchion, different to the Durham and the Catalan especimens, is probably—as said by Mr. R. Ewart Oakeshott about the Thorpe-falchion—of eastern origin. In regard to chronology of the Córdoba-falchion, its pommel and quillons indicate a period about the end of the 14th century. |
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I think that's highly unlikely: Nasrid swords we have are all straight and double-edged, earlier were Viking-like or Oakeshott type XII. Sabers are not Arab swords, and wouldn't enter in Islamic Spain as far as we know. The Arab Islamic Straight sword might sometimes have a single edge, but it never gets a clip-point.
By the way, Vaulthier was kinda right for the blade length.
“Burn old wood, read old books, drink old wines, have old friends.”
Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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