Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > 1350-70 bascinets. Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 7:50 am    Post subject: 1350-70 bascinets.         Reply with quote

Well. I'm trying to find out the evolution of the visors throught the century.
We can see that the first visors looked like the great helms ones, like these http://manuscriptminiatures.com/francais-22495/1468/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/codex-st-peter-perg-92/855/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/holkham-bible/147/
And than we have the evolution in the '70s, with the german klappvisr "shovel face" and the more widespread houndskull.
But what there is in between? (my area of interest of course is Italy, but all the other european coonties are fine too)
I'm asking mainly because I want to know if this kind of bascinet is suitable for the '60s, but either because now I'm courious what we can find out.
http://steel-mastery.com/en/plate-armour/helm...ting-visor

Thanks.

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think you will find bascinets in a plethora of types and designs that do not fit cleanly into most categories used by reenactors.

I think what you are seeing is that the bascinet is the culmination of the old round/ conical helmets and the great helm. The great helm at its apex gets a round, conical or 3/4 back point. and even a visor. From here we see the independent helmet takes many of these characteristics.

One of the problems is what is the difference between a great helm with a round or conical top and an early bascinet. The Queen Mary Psalter is full of what could easily be a round topped great helm or a bascinet.

Here is a 1325 or so example-
http://molcat1.bl.uk/illcat/ILLUMINBig.ASP?si...llID=28956

This bascinet has a 3/4 back point, visor and even a few plates that seem to cover the back of the neck.

Here is Hugh Hastings c1340-
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/hugh_.../original/

And in Hugh Hastings Effigy you see several types of bascinets as well. Some with visors of more keel shaped fronts to rounded ones. Most seem to be lowering down mid way past the ears.

Through much of the 14th you see bascinets that are little more than a round/conical/back point top over the top of the head to ones that are just over the ears down sort of mid ways down and some further that cover down to the neck. You also see some with large face openings to small ones and visors that are a small little nearly flat plate to the one with a visor like the great helm to ones with round or pointed snouts.

The Holkham Bible I think is showing early bascinets but I think it might be a better representation of older arms and armour. If one thinks of how a old book was made it likely took months if not years. So these books might cover a large amount of time. As well we know authors were trying to show at times a depiction of what they thought of as the past as in the Taymouth Hours where there are gents in near full armour then gents killing Thomas Beckett in head to toe mail. Several of the illustrations of the Holkham show previous events a decade or more old and might be trying to show this in the picture.

I can not emphasize enough how important getting a balanced view of arms and armour and their dates by using text in such projects. I really do not think artwork usually shows state of the art arms and armour much of the time. It is certainly useful in viewing such things but it needs reinforcements for dates.

Depending on who you are portraying I think this helmet works until about 1360.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Mon 09 Jan, 2012 4:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well Randall, I knew that you'd give that kind of answer. You are always the best =)!
Thanks for such a detailed answer, very interesting post.
Why do you need to know my persona? You need to know if he is an old knight or something similar to that?

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Mon 09 Jan, 2012 6:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Right.

If you are wealthy, whether a knight or commoner you are much more likely to have the option of a more current helmet. For the helmet you are looking at it works for a well to do guy and all but once you get past 1360 the visors used for the well to do will shift away from the visors like the great helm visors further. The round faced ones like in the Hugh Hastings as well as a shallow point look like they become more common. Let me look around some for some good images but most of the illustrations of the period have visorless bascinets from 1350-1370/80 or so.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Mon 09 Jan, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Let's say that I don't have a definite persona yet. All I can thell is that he lives in a small city (Cividale del Friuli) very imoportant in the XIVth. cent. in this territory (Friuli).
I think he doesen't belong to the knightly class, he maybe just belongs to the city middle bourgeoisie.
The problem is that I'm just 18, so I canět pretend to be that old...

Here are pics of the current project.




Edit:
I'm asking that because I partecipate to a reenactment set in 1366 and I saw this italian fresco dated 1363 (where is shown an arms armour similar to mine).

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thread resurrection!!
Found some examples of the "great helm-like" visored bascinets in the late century.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/de-civitate-d...-170/1033/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/les-anciennes...g-vii/430/
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/les-anciennes...g-vii/454/

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think your first one is just a funny drawing of a standard bascinet visor of the time.

The other two may be.

Commoners, especially wealthy merchant types, would have access to the best arms and armour of the day.

For your kit, yeah I think it works fine but I am not sure about the helmet much past 1360 or 1370.

Now that said if you could get the front plate off and add a flip visor that would help a great deal.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Augusto Boer Bront
Industry Professional



Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
Joined: 12 Nov 2009

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Naaah, I'll directly shiwitch to the battle ready helmet I posted previously (mine is just 1mm thick). Big Grin Big Grin
Thanks for the advice thought Cool .

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a good one so I'd do that as well but figured it might be an option.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > 1350-70 bascinets.
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum