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John Apsega




PostPosted: Sat 07 Jan, 2012 9:39 pm    Post subject: Senior English Viking Debacle         Reply with quote

So this semester I am taking English 4 which is British Lit. I love British Literature and I was ecstatic to find out that the first work we would be doing was Beowulf, which I have read several times before. Our nutty teacher decided that it would be a good idea to show a movie about the viking to let the class see what they looked like and such. This was an excellent idea to me until I realized that the movie was The Thirteenth Warrior. I had never seen it before but in all honestly it caused me physical pain. Many of the groups were several hundred years out of place and the vikings had pieces of plate armor on. Not to mention that their swords were horribly fantasy and at one point the Islamic thirteenth part of the group was handed a sword and he promptly said "I cannot hold this, its too heavy".

I was so disgusted at this that I approached my teacher after class, told her about my hobbie, favorite time period (which is the late viking period), and the kit that I am putting together (which is still largely uncompleted, being a student and a smoker has not given me much time or money to complete it). I told her I can bring in my Helm and some other resources.

So I am asking the forum, for educational proposes, if you have any kits in the Viking style, or and viking weapons or armor, please send me an email at japs8944@students.spcc.edu! with some pics that I can put into a educational video.

Thanks guys
Im looking forward to hearing from you.
John Apsega

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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Mick Jarvis




Location: Australia
Joined: 18 Jul 2010

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PostPosted: Sat 07 Jan, 2012 11:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the 13th warrior is a great movie
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 12:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mick Jarvis wrote:
the 13th warrior is a great movie

but we can agree that its historically horrendous,

so just to be clear what aspects of vikin history do you want, just the composition of their arms and armour?

look up hurstwic.com it has good info on all aspects of viking weapons and armour both how they were made plus how they were likely used. this sites information is based purely off the sagas and archaeolgical data. so as far as sources go its very good
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John Apsega




PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 12:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I love the hurstwic site and for personal information I use it consistently. However I would rather not copyright images and such. If It comes down to it i will go there but I would prefer to try this first.

I am looking for a basic over view, Helmets and swords in particular, as I am trying to fix the bad myths about horned helms.

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 2:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would suggest to your teacher that next time she should show "Beowulf and Grendel" instead.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0402057/

Not perfect either, but I think it's quite good.
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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
Joined: 02 Apr 2009

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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 2:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

13th Warrior is not as bad a choice as it seems at first sight. Yes the kit on display is awful but Bewoulf and his hearth companions certainly display the black humour and cheerful fatalism that we find in the sagas.

But I'm at a loss as to why your teacher thought to show a film about Vikings at all, if you're studying Beowulf. If you want images of people portraying warriors of England and Scandinavia during the period in which the poem is set, i can do that for you (or you can go and look at the Vendel Madness thread on this site).

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Bunker wrote:
13th Warrior is not as bad a choice as it seems at first sight. Yes the kit on display is awful but Bewoulf and his hearth companions certainly display the black humour and cheerful fatalism that we find in the sagas.

Yeah, they got the Norse spirit down pat. Infuriatingly, the props and costuming were also quite historically accurate to begin with, until executive meddling made a mess of them.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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D. Phillip Caron




Location: Arcadia, FL
Joined: 28 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 5:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

13th Warrior is on the top of my favorite list also. Among other plus assets, it is the only movie I have ever seen which is truely an "Epic". It has all the requirements necessary for a long poem to be an "epic" poem in the British tradition. This puts it in the same line as Homer and Milton.
An epic movie to introduce and eic poem.

The first casualty of battle is bravado, the second is macho.
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Jim Adelsen
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Location: WI
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I too enjoy 13th Warrior. Though obviously they could have used better props. Definitly not a good example of what they would have looked like. I haven't seen it for quite a while, but Beowulf and Grendel might be a good choice if studying Beowulf. My memory has that one using pretty accurate props.
www.viking-shield.com
www.thevikingmuseum.com
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Austin D.G. Hill




Location: Darien IL., USA
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

although it isn't in the main viking period, Arn has some great Scandinavian stuff that is historically accurate.
AUSTIN DANIEL GLENN HILL
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Matthew Bunker




Location: Somerset UK
Joined: 02 Apr 2009

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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Austin D.G. Hill wrote:
although it isn't in the main viking period, Arn has some great Scandinavian stuff that is historically accurate.


But finding English subtitled copies of the two full films rather than the hack-job that turns 2 x 2 hour films into one 2 hour film is pretty much impossible without resorting to illegal downloads.

"If a Greek can do it, two Englishman certainly can !"
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Austin D.G. Hill




Location: Darien IL., USA
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 11:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

that is true. yet i did see one called arn the knight templar which was easy to understand. it was the two combined i think.
AUSTIN DANIEL GLENN HILL
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Please note the OP is not looking for movies or movie reviews, but for other info. Let's stay on track, please.

Quote:
So I am asking the forum, for educational proposes, if you have any kits in the Viking style, or and viking weapons or armor, please send me an email at japs8944@students.spcc.edu! with some pics that I can put into a educational video.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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John Apsega




PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for your input guys, I believe that we are studying a bit about the Vikings because Beowulf was originally a viking tale that was written down in England after the Viking Invasion.

The reason that I did not simply give my teacher advice on other movies which would be better than the Thirteenth Warrior is the school bored in the county that I live in. They Generally do not approve of showing movies in class. As such my teacher does not want to simply show a bunch of movies. So I am trying to put a short video together over viewing kits, weapons, and jewelry, from all periods in the Viking Age and a guide for my class.

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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Doug Lester




Location: Decatur, IL
Joined: 12 Dec 2007

Posts: 167

PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The "Vikings" have suffered from bad press from the early middle ages on. Even the term Viking is inaccurate when applied as a ethnic identification rather that the occupational group that it really was. Even one of the books that I have on the Norse states that that was an inaccurate use of the term but said that they were going to bow to convention and use the term Viking instead of Norse or the subgroups of Danes, Swedes, and norwegians.

These people were not the ignorant savages running around in animal skins and horned helmets. They helped keep commerce going during the dark ages, were accomplished craftsmen, explorers, dressed in spun garments, and gave us the tradition of the Saturday night bath. Not to mention that the English names for four days of the week come from the names of some of their pagan gods.

I would recommend that if you are interested in the topic that you look up some historical books on the people. I would give you the names if the one's that I have but I wasn't able to fine the right book pile. I must say that the idea of showing most movies in a history class gives me the shivers. Most are meant to entertain rather than to educate and are rife with inaccuracies
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Ken Speed





Joined: 09 Oct 2006

Posts: 656

PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Apsega wrote, "....... I believe that we are studying a bit about the Vikings because Beowulf was originally a viking tale that was written down in England after the Viking Invasion. "

Although scholars seem to go back and forth I think there's a strong body of opinion that the Beowulf story actually predates the Viking Age. It is clearly originally a Scandinavian story and was obviously known in the Viking age.

Movie treatments of the Viking age all suffer from Hollywood's love of distortion. The Thirteenth Warrior is far from the worst movie your teacher could have chosen.

Without boring your classmates silly with details they don't care about I'd want to make the point that a Viking in the 8th century was probably much different than a Viking in the 11th century.
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John Apsega




PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doug Lester wrote:
The "Vikings" have suffered from bad press from the early middle ages on. Even the term Viking is inaccurate when applied as a ethnic identification rather that the occupational group that it really was. Even one of the books that I have on the Norse states that that was an inaccurate use of the term but said that they were going to bow to convention and use the term Viking instead of Norse or the subgroups of Danes, Swedes, and norwegians.

These people were not the ignorant savages running around in animal skins and horned helmets. They helped keep commerce going during the dark ages, were accomplished craftsmen, explorers, dressed in spun garments, and gave us the tradition of the Saturday night bath. Not to mention that the English names for four days of the week come from the names of some of their pagan gods.

I would recommend that if you are interested in the topic that you look up some historical books on the people. I would give you the names if the one's that I have but I wasn't able to fine the right book pile. I must say that the idea of showing most movies in a history class gives me the shivers. Most are meant to entertain rather than to educate and are rife with inaccuracies


Please do not get me wrong, I have done extensive research in the viking period, especially the late viking age. I personally do not need any more information. I posted this as I would not like to resort to copyright in-figment to get pictures for this project. I will if I have to as I do not think that it is that big of a deal in this instance, however I would simply like to get permission from people first.

I do not mean to come across as an ass, pardon my Saxon lol,

Thank you for a response.

John Apsega

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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David Huggins




Location: UK
Joined: 25 Jul 2007

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: English debacle         Reply with quote

John

You are looking at the wrong period of history if is it the Beowulf poem you seek to illustrate.

Its been said twice on the thread but the general 'history' and setting of the Beowulf poem takes place in the pre-viking age.

Look at 6th & 7th century artifacts to give an impression of the arms and armour used by the warriors as described within the poem.

The 13th Warrior movie and the book it was based upon were only very very loosely based upon the Beowulf poem and an 'ethnographic' description of later viking age encounters by an Arab ambassdor.

Personally I think the animated Beowulf was by far more of an interesting film!

best
Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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David Huggins




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 9:33 pm    Post subject: English debacle         Reply with quote

John

By the way I would suggest to your english teacher by far a better illustration of the power and magic of the Beowulf poem to its listener then any Hollywood nonsense has to be the performance of Benjamin Bagby recitng and performing the poem Sheer brilliance! http://www.bagbybeowulf.com/ Watch the video clip, no doubt a performance as stirring as this was enjoyed by the poem's contemporary audiance and performed to this bravado standard can still be enjoyed today.

best
Dave

and he who stands and sheds blood with us, shall be as a brother.
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Glennan Carnie




Location: UK
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PostPosted: Mon 09 Jan, 2012 4:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's probably also worth getting hold of a copy of J R R Tolkein's Beowulf: The Monsters and the Critics .
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