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Robert Rootslane




Location: Estonia
Joined: 06 Aug 2007

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: A few qestions, about things i cant find         Reply with quote

Hi, over the time i have spent in this forum, i have read a few things, that seemed interesting, but now i cant find them anymore, even with the help of the search engine.

Firstly: I cant find the topic anymore, but im sure i have read from somewheare here, that some people made sword vs. helmet experiments and were unable to penetrate it in measure that would be lethal. I Also remember that it was only briefly mentioned in that topic. So does anone know wheare i can read more about it?

Secondly: Coifs. Has theare been coifs, that cover parts of the face? Like an aventail would if one would wear a norman helmet with a hook on the nasal. Im planning on wearingcoif and helmet on some figths, but the way we fight, i would really like something between me and the sword. Any pictures, finds and so on are welcome.


Thyrdly: Can anyone please share some pictures about the first crusade. I think theare once was a topic about it but that is also lost. Havent beenable to find much about first crusade in internet either. Im mostly interested if the full mail armour with mittens and legs was already worn during the first crusade, or didit come a bitt later.

Hope someone can find this stuff, or knows anything about it.
R.


Last edited by Robert Rootslane on Wed 04 Jan, 2012 6:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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Location: Birmingham, Alabama
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: A few qestions, about hings i cant find         Reply with quote

Robert Rootslane wrote:
Hi, over the time i have spent in this forum, i have read a few things, that seemed interesting, but now i cant find them anymore, even with the help of the search engine.

Firstly: I cant find the topic anymore, but im sure i have read from somewheare here, that some people made sword vs. helmet experiments and were unable to penetrate it in measure that would be lethal. I Also remember that it was only briefly mentioned in that topic. So does anone know wheare i can read more about it?

Secondly: Coifs. Has theare been coifs, that cover parts of the face? Like an aventail would if one would wear a norman helmet with a hook on the nasal. Im planning on wearingcoif and helmet on some figths, but the way we fight, i would really like something between me and the sword. Any pictures, finds and so on are welcome.


Thyrdly: Can anyone please share some pictures about the first crusade. I think theare once was a topic about it but that is also lost. Havent beenable to find much about first crusade in internet either. Im mostly interested if the full mail armour with mittens and legs was already worn during the first crusade, or didit come a bitt later.

Hope someone can find this stuff, or knows anything about it.
R.


Can't help with the third topic, but see Sander's recent posts on the second topic: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18254&start=120

And see this thread http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=987 for a general discussion relevant to your first question. In general, unless somebody is wearing a helmet made exactly as originals in every respect and is struck by a sword made the same way, we can't do much more than guess. Even in a theoretically perfect test, the result would apply only to that armour and weapon.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

period art work of the first crusade i haven't had too much luck in finding either. when researching art work for a particular period you have to keep in mind that you have to search for 11th century art work because an artist creates what is relevant to his time. if you search by "crusade" images it's going to bring up a lot a art work made from later centurys.

a fully armoured 'knight' of the first crusade would probably have a nasal helm, mail shirt, leggins, and a tear dropped styled shield. men-at-arms would very greatly, and there aren't many descriptions of how the knights/ men-at-arms were armoured though the histories i've been reading.

i think one of the closest images you can cross reference with the first crusade may be the bayeux tapestry - it dates from 1070 - 1080 a few years before the conquest of england, but i don't think that armor changed too much before the beginning of the cursade.
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Robert Rootslane




Location: Estonia
Joined: 06 Aug 2007

Posts: 72

PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello, and thanx for the answers.

Sean:

Sanders picture is one of the things that raised that qestion in my head actually. However the topic wont explain if the coif with face guard is after a certai find etc....

I agree, with you about testing, but that kind of stuff is still interesting to read.




Daniel:


Quote:
period art work of the first crusade i haven't had too much luck in finding either. when researching art work for a particular period you have to keep in mind that you have to search for 11th century art work because an artist creates what is relevant to his time. if you search by "crusade" images it's going to bring up a lot a art work made from later centurys


Yes thats the real trick about it. Most arwork about the first crusade, that i have seen, is from atleast 100 years later:D




Quote:
a fully armoured 'knight' of the first crusade would probably have a nasal helm, mail shirt, leggins, and a tear dropped styled shield. men-at-arms would very greatly, and there aren't many descriptions of how the knights/ men-at-arms were armoured though the histories i've been reading.

i think one of the closest images you can cross reference with the first crusade may be the bayeux tapestry - it dates from 1070 - 1080 a few years before the conquest of england, but i don't think that armor changed too much before the beginning of the cursade



Yes, if we look at the tapestry, most of the guys wear a long mail shirt. Most of them dont seem to have long sleeves, none have mittens. Only william and few other guys wear mail leggings.

One of the things i am interestes in, is when exactly did the long mail shirt turn into a mail that covered the whole body.

I have seen some pictures from the second crusade (if im not confusing it with the third), what i think were period. Knights there were already fully mail clad.

R
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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Thu 05 Jan, 2012 5:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Robert Rootslane wrote:

Yes, if we look at the tapestry, most of the guys wear a long mail shirt. Most of them dont seem to have long sleeves, none have mittens. Only william and few other guys wear mail leggings.

One of the things i am interestes in, is when exactly did the long mail shirt turn into a mail that covered the whole body.

I have seen some pictures from the second crusade (if im not confusing it with the third), what i think were period. Knights there were already fully mail clad.

R


Sorry I can't give an exact answer from the top of my head, but I understand that at the time of hastings, only the very, very rich had mail legs. The majority as you say show the short-sleeved (but long) hauberks.

I believe it was sometime during the first half of the 12c that long sleeves bacame common (and probably a gradual take-on too). It's not an area I've looked at in a lot of detail - but I have looked into late 12c stuff and can say for certain that by then, long sleeves were almost universal, and mail leggings (usuallly covering just the front) were also becoming quite common too. Integrated mufflers existed too - but were not universal.

On the subject of mail legs, I believe them to be a part of armour that is heavily specialised for cavalry. Having worn them, I know how much they sap energy on foot - and their widespread use (certainly in England) seems to coincide with the knighthood fighting less and less on foot. It may be telling that at Hastings, Willliam wore them because, being the commander, he was always going to be on horseback - but for the rest of his knights - it was not uncommon for them to dismount and fight as heavy infantry.

What we see is a gradual increase in mail coverage from C11 to C13 - as usual, led by those with money.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Fri 20 Jan, 2012 2:46 am    Post subject: Re: A few qestions, about things i cant find         Reply with quote

Robert Rootslane wrote:
Firstly: I cant find the topic anymore, but im sure i have read from somewheare here, that some people made sword vs. helmet experiments and were unable to penetrate it in measure that would be lethal. I Also remember that it was only briefly mentioned in that topic. So does anone know wheare i can read more about it?


If I'm not mistaken, this came out in a discussion about Obata Toshishiro and his kabuto-wari experiments, in which he managed to cut a gash open in a Japanese helmet with a katana--but the gash, while long and quite terrible-looking, was quite shallow and would probably not have been lethal to the wearer (at least in the immediate aftermath of the blow--you can't tell if the bloke is going to die of subdural haematoma several months or years later).
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Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 244

PostPosted: Fri 20 Jan, 2012 3:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding #3, is this you're looking for?



http://www.onesixthwarriors.com/forum/sixth-s...e-6-a.html

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
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