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Albion Knight or T&T ATrim XII.4
Albion Knight
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 66%  [ 26 ]
T&T ATrim XII.4
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Other
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Total Votes : 39

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Paul B.G




Location: Victoria, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject: Albion Knight or T&T ATrim XII.4, XII.5, etc         Reply with quote

For some time now Iíve been holding my breath hoping that Albion might have some sort of sale on the Knight but alas I donít think one is coming. A while ago I decided that the Albion Knight was going to be my next medieval and first single handed sword but recently Iíve read a lot of good things about ATrims and have been trolling through there site for some time. And I really like what Tom is doing with the new peening.

As the topic suggest Iím interested to get the experience of those in the know, in particular those who have been lucky enough to have used both. I realise that we are at 2 different price points, and whilst price can be managed, value for money is more important to me.

I would be grateful if you could share your thoughts, experience, opinions, pros & cons and recommendations for the best XII type out there?

Thanks - Paul

A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person

O====[::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

Thoí much is taken, much abides; and thoí
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

óAlfred Lord Tennyson, Ulysses
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Addison C. de Lisle




Location: South Carolina
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2011 9:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I haven't handled the Atrim you are interested in, but the Albion Knight is excellent. I got to handle one and when I picked it up it immediately felt "right". If it didn't have essentially the same hilt configuration as my Crecy I would probably own one. I have always had a great experience with my purchases from Albion, and highly recommend them. Happy
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Robert W Tucker




Location: Bozeman MT
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2011 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Save up and get the Albion I have one and it's A great sword, it cuts with very little effort, I was slicing through pork ribs like they weren't there, going threw them with a click click click, transitioning from cut to thrust is very reasonable and with practice can be down easily very good weapon for sword and buckler, the only sword better in my opinion would be the Albion Solingen but that's a big step up in price I would buy another knight in a heart beat if I had the cash but I am now saving up for the Solingen.
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Zach Luna




Location: Los Angeles
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PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2011 1:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Albion Knight or T&T ATrim XII.4, XII.5, etc         Reply with quote

Paul B.G wrote:
I realise that we are at 2 different price points, and whilst price can be managed, value for money is more important to me.

I would be grateful if you could share your thoughts, experience, opinions, pros & cons and recommendations for the best XII type out there?


With value for money in mind, the ATrim would be the clear choice, at around half the price of the Albion.



I don't want to speak for Mike Harris, but he owns two Albion Knights, an Albion Caithness, an Albion Laird, and an Albion Knightly (that is, ALL of the Albion XIIs) and still has on multiple occasions named the Atrim XII.1 as his favorite type XII--a model he nicknamed 'Harley'.

(The ATrim XII.1 has the same blade as the XII.4 but with a different fuller configuration)

Here's what he had to say about the XII.4 last year:

Quote:
However, after looking over and handling the ATrim Type XII.4 prototype Sonny Suttles has in stock, I bought it on the spot. He's refinishing the blade and putting some final touches on it. And he's going to make me a scabbard and belt for it. At this point I think it will supercede Harley for the #1 spot. It may even take the never-before-filled-role of "if I could only have ONE sword, this would be it."


Here's Mike and the XII.1 "Harley" in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCNFMxDTtXg&am...embedded#!


Last edited by Zach Luna on Fri 23 Dec, 2011 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Fri 23 Dec, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd save up for the Albion.
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Jeff A. Arbogast





Joined: 16 Oct 2008

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PostPosted: Sat 24 Dec, 2011 2:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was lucky enough to get the Knight from Albion when they had a 25% off sale a few years back. I love it. Understated elegance, like my Norman, my first Albion. A wider blade at the bottom, with a more acute point. More balanced than the Norman, which is a bit longer, but an earlier sword. If I had to pick between these two, I'd go with the Knight as a better all-around sword, although I'll always have a soft spot for my Norman, my first Albion. Still remember the thrill of that day. While not familiar with the other brand you mention, I'd have no remorse buying an Albion, regardless of cost. No pain no gain, as they say.
A man's nose is his castle-and his finger is a mighty sword that he may wield UNHINDERED!
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Dec, 2011 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

ATrims stepped up a lot recently, historical hilt construction available, some minor customizations also, good price, excellent performance... I might go with an ATrim. Especially since some people said that Knight is maybe a bit too neutral in handling.
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Dec, 2011 9:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I, actually find the knight to be great handling sword. I generally prefer earlier types but the knight does handle wonderfully.
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Zach Luna




Location: Los Angeles
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Dec, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeremy V. Krause wrote:
I, actually find the knight to be great handling sword. I generally prefer earlier types but the knight does handle wonderfully.


Have you handled the ATrims as well? Preferences are great, but they're unhelpful if the information involved is incomplete.

I, for instance, love the handling of my Albion Crecy, but just because the handling is good doesn't give me license to say one shouldn't get an Albion Regent or an A&A Black Prince instead if I haven't handled those models as well.

I've owned and handled several ATrims and Albions, but of the models Paul has inquired about I've only seen the Albion, so I only feel comfortable commenting on fit and finish. Not the handling.
(The Knight is clearly ahead on fit and finish.)
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Sat 24 Dec, 2011 7:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have found in my experience that the ATrim is a light, lively, well-balanced, and agile performance sword. It's somewhat lighter than it's historical counterpart would have been and not quite as heavy in the tip. The Albion is on par with historical Type XIIs, so it won't feel quite as light or nimble as the ATrim - which as designed as a performance sword to enhance Type XII attributes.

To be honest, I like both of the swords you are pondering over. If it were me and money were no option, I would chose the Knight just because I prefer the historic aesthetics and heaftier blade myself. However, for the money, you would be hard pressed to beat the ATrim at it's price point. A few slight modifications such as a custom grip and a hot-peen would go far to make it just as nice in appearace as any other Type XII out there, with premium cutting performance to boot.

Good luck with choosing! Happy

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Eric G.




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PostPosted: Sat 24 Dec, 2011 9:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was recently looking at the XII.1 vs the Albion Knight as well. I ended up choosing the XII.1 (with the I.4 pommel) for a few reasons.

1) I have the Albion Count. While this is a very different sword in many many ways, they are both cut-oriented swords. The Count is, I think, just a tad flimsy for my tastes. Though I must admit that given the chance to buy it again I would.
2) Maike Harris (who is very active over on SBG) owns more XII's currently than the total number of swords that I will probably ever own - ever. That guy knows his stuff and likes the atrim XIII.1 a lot.
3) Working with Tom at T&T is a sheer pleasure. The guy really has a passion for what he is doing and it shows through his emails. I have sufficiently proven to myself (via some requests that I have made) that he would be happier not selling a bad sword than selling a bad sword.
4) While Albion excels in oh so many ways, it seems to me that the Atrim swords score higher in terms of handling. I must admit that my conclusion is based only on the observations I have made from more experienced persons than myself. I have two atrims on order, and I own two Albions, so I haven't yet seen this first hand.

If you are really considering it I would shoot Tom an email. He will answer all of your questions and he is very prompt with his responses too.

And just for the record, no, my XII.1 hasn't arrived yet. Hopefully it will soon.

Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Paul B.G




Location: Victoria, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2011 2:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for taking the time to post your comments and advice guys I really appreciate it, I forgot itís so close to Christmas and we all have a lot to do. Christmas night ATM here in Australia Wink end on a long day.

Iíve also sought advice on this question over at SBG, so far itís a 50/50 split there as opposed to 66/25 split here in favour for the knight. However all those that have handled both swords say that the ATrim has the slight edge in terms of performance but itís not as historical. So Iím at the point where I need to more reconcile with myself what it is that Iím after, the better performing ATrim or the more complete package of the Albion.

I have really liked the look and the idea of the Knight for some time and I came close to purchasing one but ended up opting for the Crecy and a scabbard from DBK. But recently I have really liked what Tom has started doing with the hot peening and the newer pommels shown in his new hot peening threads (not shown yet on the T & T site). I really think I would be happy with either, $800 for the Albion and once optioned and polished around $550+ (est) for the ATrim, a $250 net difference, plus the extra Albion charges for shipping, not sure why they charge more than others for international shipping.

Iíve got a bit to consider over the Christmas break,

Thanks Guys - Paul

A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with the same person

O====[::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>

Thoí much is taken, much abides; and thoí
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

óAlfred Lord Tennyson, Ulysses
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2011 4:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I just remembered that XII.4 has hexagonal section. That may push me in a direction of the Knight...
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2011 9:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul B.G wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to post your comments and advice guys I really appreciate it, I forgot itís so close to Christmas and we all have a lot to do. Christmas night ATM here in Australia Wink end on a long day.

Iíve also sought advice on this question over at SBG, so far itís a 50/50 split there as opposed to 66/25 split here in favour for the knight. However all those that have handled both swords say that the ATrim has the slight edge in terms of performance but itís not as historical. So Iím at the point where I need to more reconcile with myself what it is that Iím after, the better performing ATrim or the more complete package of the Albion.

I have really liked the look and the idea of the Knight for some time and I came close to purchasing one but ended up opting for the Crecy and a scabbard from DBK. But recently I have really liked what Tom has started doing with the hot peening and the newer pommels shown in his new hot peening threads (not shown yet on the T & T site). I really think I would be happy with either, $800 for the Albion and once optioned and polished around $550+ (est) for the ATrim, a $250 net difference, plus the extra Albion charges for shipping, not sure why they charge more than others for international shipping.

Iíve got a bit to consider over the Christmas break,

Thanks Guys - Paul


Oh, i've felt the sting of international shipping. . . . . WTF?!

Yes, it seems that making your decision will be dependent on whether you want more of an emphasis on cutting performance or on historical accuracy.


Last edited by Jeremy V. Krause on Sun 25 Dec, 2011 6:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Disclaimer: I've not handled an Atrim in ages and never a single-hander. But let me throw this out there. This seems to be boiling down to accuracy vs. performance. Why are those separate issues? They are, and ought to be, one and the same. The knight has historical looks and performance. The Atrim may handle "better" (good luck defining that one), but does it handle as a typical historical Type XII should? A criticism of Atrims over the years is that their handling can be more (sometimes far more) neutral/pleasant than a historical sword of a given type should be. In other words, they feel nice in the hand and do great in backyard cutting. But do they handle in such a way that they'd hold up to the circumstances for which they were designed?

I've no doubt the Atrim feels good in the hand and will destroy anything test cutting materials you swing it at. But I'd put my money toward the one designed after extensive, meticulous hands-on research that feels like a historical Type XII instead of one that may feel livelier, but may that may run the risk of missing some of the handling qualities of an original.

Just my thoughts. Happy

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Eric G.




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
I just remembered that XII.4 has hexagonal section. That may push me in a direction of the Knight...


True, this held me back from making my purchase for a while. I seem to remember Tom K. or Mike H. mention something about polishing out the cross section towards more of a lenticular cross section if it started to bother him.

Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
Knowledge applied is power.
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Tom Kinder





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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2011 5:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I do not wish to steer our good OP towards making a decision in this thread (besides I think my opinion on that should be obvious) but I do wish to address a particular comment if I may.

Mr. Arnow said "A criticism of Atrims over the years is that their handling can be more (sometimes far more) neutral/pleasant than a historical sword of a given type should be."

I am not going to say he is wrong but I'd like to bring this idea up to date.

whatever happened in the past is in the past. Currently, Gus is dedicated to making swords that feel and act as much like historical swords as possible. he has handled and studied many antiques, and he also has a vast amount of detailed information on antique swords that he got from Mr. Ewart Oakeshott while he was still alive. Gus has traded information and learned from and studied with some of the best people the modern sword community has had to offer, and he is an avid martial artist which lends its own valuable perspective to the mix. I think it is very safe to say that Gus does know how an antique sword should feel and he is able to recreate that.

I think there has been a certain amount of misunderstanding concerning Gus and his swords. yes, there have been models that would definitely fit the above criticism and there may have been a time when that criticism would have fit some, most or maybe even all of his swords, but that time is well behind us now and getting farther away every day.

very few of Gus' current sword models are neutral at all and I would like to ask that old standards be not applied too vigorously since what he is doing right now is a whole new thing.

the XII.4 which is one of the swords in question is a very powerful sword with a lot of blade presence, I don't think anyone would call it neutral. this sword does have a distinct hexagonal cross section and that was done purposefully. it can be softened but I'm hesitant to say it could be removed entirely. if a customer were to want the hexagonal cross section softened or removed I would talk to Gus about it and see what we can do. my personal XII.4 which I got from Christian Fletcher as an "Antioch" prestige line sword has the hex portion considerably softened compared to the standard XII.4 but the hex shape is still there.
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Jeremy V. Krause




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Disclaimer: I've not handled an Atrim in ages and never a single-hander. But let me throw this out there. This seems to be boiling down to accuracy vs. performance. Why are those separate issues? They are, and ought to be, one and the same. The knight has historical looks and performance. The Atrim may handle "better" (good luck defining that one), but does it handle as a typical historical Type XII should? A criticism of Atrims over the years is that their handling can be more (sometimes far more) neutral/pleasant than a historical sword of a given type should be. In other words, they feel nice in the hand and do great in backyard cutting. But do they handle in such a way that they'd hold up to the circumstances for which they were designed?

I've no doubt the Atrim feels good in the hand and will destroy anything test cutting materials you swing it at. But I'd put my money toward the one designed after extensive, meticulous hands-on research that feels like a historical Type XII instead of one that may feel livelier, but may that may run the risk of missing some of the handling qualities of an original.

Just my thoughts. Happy


Oh, I'm with you %100 here Chad. It's all in what you want in a sword.
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