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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 2:25 am    Post subject: Did combined quivers/scabbards exist?         Reply with quote

I'm curious about this image which Blaz posted in the 'Introducing ... The Knecht' thread back in 2007.

Is this possibly a combined quiver/scabbard? If so, would it have been practical? Would its 'multifunction' benefits have been outweighed by the fact that it looks like it would not hold many bolts? (The image shows three; even allowing for a double-row, six is not much...)

And, if these were indeed historical, does anyone know of a modern reproduction?

If not, it seems odd that the artist would have chosen to depict the quiver so neatly aligned and centred on top of the scabbard - both lengthwise and widthwise, seeing as the other elements look a little 'scattered' on the ground ...

What do y'all think? It has me intrigued ...

Despite the lack of firepower, the compactness of this design, and the 'one-less-thing-flapping-around-on-the-kit-belt' factor has me really tempted to get Tod to make one of these! Cool



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dijonpavesefp6 - France, Colmar mid 15th C posted by Blaz Berlec, 31.05.07 on myA.jpg


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dijonpavesefp6 - France, Colmar mid 15th C posted by Blaz Berlec, 31.05.07 on myA detail.jpg


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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 3:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a lovely quiver and they are often shown very skinny like this and so seem to hold few bolts.

I have never seen or heard of a piece like this where the two items were joined, however assuming soldiers then are like soldiers now, a high level of personalisation, customisation and kit preference would go on. So whos to say this fellow didn't get out his roll of medieval gaffer tape and join the two items? I see this as a more likely scenario myself.

Either way it is a lovely elegant quiver.

Go on tip over the edge of temptation.....

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Ben Bouchard




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 5:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Furthermore, who's to say a fellow didn't start off by binding the two items together, like the result, and later have a truly combined version done up for himself? Or perhaps the quiver is intended to bind 'round the the scabbard but is removable?
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Christopher Treichel




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 6:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is a pretty messer.

As far as the size of the quiver is concerned... how many bolts would one really need if you were not expecting to be in a long drawn out battle... Maybe six bolts at the ready and another dozen elsewhere?
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 9:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

found some more combined quiver/scabbard paintings.



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Ralph Grinly





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seeing that pic of the three horseman has gotten me to thinking just how awkward it would be for a crossbowman on horseback. A crossbow is not something you can easily sling..so you have to carry it..and they're not that comfortable to carry..that only leaves you one hand for the horse. To span one of those style..you have to dismount to put foot into crossbow stirrup..and once spanned..it would be hard to use from horseback--one careless bump and you'd either set it off prematurely, or drop the quarrel. Mind you..I'm not saying it *can't* be done..just not that it's too practical for average user on horseback
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Leo Todeschini
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ralph Grinly wrote
Quote:
To span one of those style..you have to dismount to put foot into crossbow stirrup..and once spanned..it would be hard to use from horseback--one careless bump and you'd either set it off prematurely, or drop the quarrel. Mind you..I'm not saying it *can't* be done..just not that it's too practical for average user on horseback


The first bow has a ring rather than a stirrup, so that is almost certainly a cranequin loaded bow, the other have stirrups, but that does not mean they were neccessarily spanned by hand and looking at the size of the bow and the syle of the bow I would say they are also likely to be cranequin bows rather than hand spanned. These are more manageable on horseback.

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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Anbeek wrote:
found some more combined quiver/scabbard paintings.


Ben, you're a champion! Well, I guess that means another obscure question has been answered here, thanks again to the wonderful community that is myArmoury. (And I still hold out hopes that Blaz or Sean will chime in here with a few other images they 'just happen' to have lying around of the same kind of design!)

Which means ...

Leo Todeschini wrote:
Go on tip over the edge of temptation.....

Tod


With an invitation like that, you're on! Big Grin (And I'm guessing that now you know they existed, you're just dying to make one! ... and a messer/quiver project - who else would be better for the job?) Perhaps we can do it to match the 'Bauernwehr Bowie' ... now that would make a very nice set.

Anyway, back on topic: any more pics? Any historical references to them? Any design challenges that Tod and I might need to think about?

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Mark T




PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just as a follow-up ... Ben, do you have details for these images: name of piece, artist, location, date? Would be interesting to know if they were particular to a time and/or place ...
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Ben Anbeek
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 12:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i don't have more information about the paintings.
but looking to the clothing i would say 1460 1470 south germany

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William P




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 1:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

that said, in terms of he number of bolts in the quiver, look at the size of the pavise in the first pictue, it seems very undersized, so the quiver and sword might not be to exact scale either. it ight be a normal sized quiver,
hw any boolts can a normal sized quiver hold?
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe these are bolt quivers tied to the top of the scabard, similar to bucklers?

In any case it seems the swords in question are short messer/falchion types, that hang more or less verticaly, on a simple loop suspension. Maybe it is more practical to have the quiver on the scabard than to have two separate items sloshing about?

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
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Olov Tidemalm





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 5:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the first of Ben's pics:
http://www.wga.hu/html_m/m/master/polling/1tassilo.html

and here's the second:
http://www.wga.hu/html_m/m/multsche/wurzach/4resurr.html
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Joel Minturn





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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You couldn't have brought this up sooner? Its too late to add this to my Christmas list Cry
But this is going on my "Must Get" wish list. And documentation for use during hunting, even better.

One quick question, in the bottom picture from Ben, is our well armed soldier carrying a crossbow, messer/knife and a long sword? Ok two questions, anyone know what the messer looks like out side of the scabord or have an example of something with a similiar grip?

Ralph - I think that is why they made things like the Crainquin and goats foot levers and Latchet crossbows, To make it easier to use from horse back. There seems to be a lot of eveidence of crossbows being used from horse back, both in hunting and in war so they made it work.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks, Olov!

I'll copy the relevant text here, in case of futre linkrot, and so we have all the relevant information in one place.

Image one:

Quote:
Prince Tassilo Rides to Hunting
MASTER of the Polling Panels
(active 1435-1450 in Upper Bavaria)
1444
Panel, 219 x 87,5 cm
Alte Pinakothek, Munich
The panel is one of the wings of the winged altarpiece of the Cloister Church in Polling. The artist is named after this work as the Master of the Polling Panels.

Biography

German painter. He was one of the most distinctive artists in early Bavarian painting and worked in the area around Munich and Kremsmünster. His oeuvre, which can be assembled with certainty on stylistic grounds, includes the panels of two winged altarpieces from the Augustinian monastery at Polling in Upper Bavaria, after which he is named. Four of these come from an altarpiece of scenes from the Life of the Virgin and are dated 1444. The altarpiece was donated by Duke Albert II of Bavaria (reg. 1438-60) and his wife, Anna (1420-74). The surviving panels are an Annunciation and Adoration of the Magi (Munich, Alte Pinakothek) and a Nativity and Presentation in the Temple (Munich, Bayerisches Nationalmuseum). Two further panels come from an altarpiece of the Holy Cross; they are a Crucifixion and three scenes of the Discovery of the True Cross (Munich, Bayerisches Nationalmuseum). Four further panels from an altarpiece of the Life of the Virgin, dated 1439, are in the Stiftsgalerie, Kremsmünster. Two well-preserved panels with St Peter and St Paul are also extant (private collection).


Image two:

Quote:
Resurrection
MULTSCHER, Hans
(b. ca. 1400, Reichenhofen/Allgau, d. 1467, Ulm)
1437
Panel, 148 x 140 cm
Staatliche Museen, Berlin

The Risen Christ, draped only in a bright red cloth, sits on a massive stone sarcophagus, the red seals on the lid of which are unbroken. The body of Christ bears the stigmata of the Crucifixion. His right hand is raised in the gesture of benediction, while in the left He holds a staff surmounted by a cross. In the confined space between the sarcophagus and the enclosing fence four armed soldiers lie in a deep sleep.

The Resurrection is one of the panels from a winged altar of considerable dimensions which has been lost without trace. Originally there was a carved central shrine, in which a Crucifixion group was probably represented. When the wings were closed, the altar showed four scenes relating to the Madonna; these (from top left to bottom right) were The Nativity, The Adoration of the Magi, The Descent of the Holy Ghost and The Death of the Virgin. When opened, the inner sides of the wings showed four scenes from the Passion, which flanked the central Crucifixion. Thus Christ on the Mount of Olives (top left), served as a companion-piece to Christ before Pilate (top right), while Christ bearing the Cross (bottom left), was placed opposite The Resurrection.

The original location of the altar has never been established. When it was dismantled, the front and rear sides of the wings became separated. On the two lower panels of the closed altar, showing The Descent of the Holy Ghost and The Death of the Virgin, the artist appended his signature : `bitte got für hanssen muoltscheren vo richehove burg ze ulm haut dz werk gemacht do ma zalt MCCCXXXVII'. Records show that in 1427 the Swabian artist, who came from Reichenhafen near Leutkirch, became a burgher of Ulm, where he worked not only as a painter but more often as a sculptor and engraver. The strength and solidity of the painted figures and their remarkable realism leave one in no doubt that Multscher combined the skills of both sculptor and painter, even though, in keeping with medieval practice, he may well have made use of a well-staffed workshop.

Biography

Multscher was a German sculptor active in Ulm. The solid naturalism of his style, reminiscent of Sluter, suggest that he was trained in the Netherlands or northern France. He ran a large workshop, which was influential in spreading this manner in Swabia. Paintings were integral to his altarpieces, but it is a matter for debate whether he practised painting himself. The Wurzach altar (1437), the only painting attributed to him by some experts, exhibits a realism nearer to contemporary Flemish than German painting.

Among his most important works was the high altar for the church at Sterzing in the Tyrol (1456-58), part of which are now in the Multscher museum there.

© Web Gallery of Art


Interesting that they're both a bit earlier than Ben and I had been guessing ...

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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 3:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These do seem to have been fairly common after all if the art is anything to go by, and it sure looks like they're joined as some are in awkward angled positions and still keep together.

Somebody needs to make one of these ASAP! Dying to see one made by you Tod, you're great with crossbows and scabbards, seems like the go to guy for this. Wink
Also I can't help noticing the lovely messer grip in the first painting and I haven't seen any exactly like that either though similar looks are common. That one needs to get re-made too.

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