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Eric G.




Location: Arizona
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sat 10 Dec, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: Considering Commissioning a Schiavona - need advice         Reply with quote

For the past few months I have been studying with Tattershall here in AZ. So far we've mostly done Italian Rapier and a little longsword. I love learning about how these were really used. It adds a whole new dimension to this obsession of mine.

Anyway, last week one of the guys was showing me a little of Bolognese swordsmanship using his Schiavona from Darkwood armory. I really and truly loved the advantages that the complex hilt gives to that style of swordplay. I was officially and immediately hooked. I've spend all week obsessing over any and every Schiavona sword I could find. Thank you Nathan for owning so many different Schiavonas so that I could browse them.

So here's my reason for posting. I will be graduating with my bachelor's degree in about 6 months. As my reward my wife has decreed that I can get myself any sword I want. Prior to this I was considering commissioning a few other swords (like the Sovereign from Albion or a custom replica of XIII.1 from Records from A&A) I am now obsessed with the idea of commissioning a schiavona. (Don't worry, Nathan, you will always be the king of these swords)

Unfortunately, my most favorites are done by Phoenix Metals, which apparently no longer does business. Do who do I turn to? I was considering getting the basket from Darkwood, the blade from Angus Trim, and a really fancy pommel done up by Christian Fletcher. Perhaps some of you could shed more light on the subject.

So here are the main points that I am wondering about. Perhaps you can help.
Who should make the blade?
What kind of blade should it be (length, cross-section taper etc.)?
Who should make the basket?
Who should make the pommel?
I have seen two very awesome pommels by Phoenix Metals (one in Nathan's collection) based on an original. Are there any other wicked awesome pommels out there from original pieces like these?

Thanks in advance.

Eric

Eric Gregersen
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Allen Reed




Location: Northwest, IL
Joined: 19 Apr 2004

Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2011 9:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Since you like the schiavonna from Darkwood why not contact Scott and see what he can do for you?
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Eric G.




Location: Arizona
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2011 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Allen Reed wrote:
Since you like the schiavonna from Darkwood why not contact Scott and see what he can do for you?


I do like Scott's work, but my knowledge of those makers that would do great on a project like this is pretty limited. I just want to throw the idea out there so that anyone that has a recommendation can share. Big Grin

Eric Gregersen
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2011 3:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would seriously consider Vladimir Cervenka.
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_cerv_schia.html
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Eric G.




Location: Arizona
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Dec, 2011 9:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just an update on this one.

I have spent some time this week compiling stats on this type of sword. I have compiled them in an Excel spreadsheet so I could examine the stats of these side by side. Most of these are from Nathan's collection, as he has the best collection in town.

I have looked at pictures of originals on the album that Nathan has dedicated to this sword as well as any and every post I could find on them. Sadly, these albums are not ripe with stats that tell about the original blades paired with these swords, and I have not been able to find any Schiavona on museum websites like the Wallace collection or Royal Armories. I have searched under schiavona, sword, and rapier. Any idea where to look?

I'm still looking for more information from anyone that has tips for me. I have found two swords with awesomely detail pommels that were recreated by Phoenix Metals. If anyone has pictures to share of similarly detailed pommels please share.

Finally, if there are any suggestions as to some great makers please feel free to share also.

Eric Gregersen
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Christopher Treichel




Location: Metro D.C.
Joined: 14 Jan 2010

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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Make sure you request that the schiavona has a thumb ring and cross (maybe even a quillon block)... I have seen some modern interpretations that don't (more like a basket hilt) and the couple of real ones I have handled (Baltimore Antique show and friends) all had both the thumb ring and cross to use, which make it behave really quickly. Think about the blade as well... do you want one that behaves more like a side sword or one with a skinny long blade that behaves more like a rapier. I have seen both in origionals and unlike some modern copies (3-4lb) the origionals were actually quite light say in the 2- 2 1/2 lb range.
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Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject: schiavonna         Reply with quote

I have one of Cervenka's schiavonnas and love it. It is light and has the thumb ring that Christopher recommends. The cat's head is simple, which is true to form. I guess it could be more ornate, depending on personnal taste.
Bon coeur et bon bras
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 8:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Treichel wrote:
I have seen both in origionals and unlike some modern copies (3-4lb) the origionals were actually quite light say in the 2- 2 1/2 lb range.


The weights on antique schiavone range a great deal and are not always light. In fact, a great majority of the ones I've handled hover around the three-pound mark with many examples being quite robust. Having said that, most modern creations have baskets that are entirely too thick in terms of the material used. They don't exhibit the three-dimensional shaping and range of thickness across the bars and pieces that make up the basket.

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Eric G.




Location: Arizona
Joined: 08 Feb 2011
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Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 249

PostPosted: Fri 16 Dec, 2011 9:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher Treichel wrote:
Make sure you request that the schiavona has a thumb ring and cross (maybe even a quillon block)... I have seen some modern interpretations that don't (more like a basket hilt) and the couple of real ones I have handled (Baltimore Antique show and friends) all had both the thumb ring and cross to use, which make it behave really quickly. Think about the blade as well... do you want one that behaves more like a side sword or one with a skinny long blade that behaves more like a rapier. I have seen both in origionals and unlike some modern copies (3-4lb) the origionals were actually quite light say in the 2- 2 1/2 lb range.


Christopher,

Thank you. I have only received instruction on this type of sword once and very briefly, but I am pretty sure that he mentioned the importance of the thumb ring on the Schiavona and the lack thereof on the English basket hilt he also had. I will have to remember to ask him again.

The behavior of the blade is also something I have thought about a lot. I am afraid that I might have a lot to learn, and the blades on these swords don't seem as straightforward to me since I am used to thinking about this in terms of the Oakeshott typology of x to XXII. I commissioned another sword from Odinblades earlier this year and I got a lot of great feedback about some key points that I was ignorant of in my initial design.

Jean-Carle Hudon wrote:
I have one of Cervenka's schiavonnas and love it. It is light and has the thumb ring that Christopher recommends. The cat's head is simple, which is true to form. I guess it could be more ornate, depending on personnal taste.


While historically accuracy is important to me, I have seen other Schiavonas that have blades that I like better than this one. It just has such a strong taper... I noticed this maker has his website in another language, am I safe to assume that his English is good enough to talk about a commission like this?


Nathan,

Thank you for your input. Do you have any particular advice as to who you might consider for a Schiavona commission? You are kinda the authority on this sword...

Thank you all.

Eric Gregersen
www.EricGregersen.com
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Jean-Carle Hudon




Location: Montreal,Canada
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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Posts: 446

PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec, 2011 8:36 am    Post subject: flag         Reply with quote

Eric,
the site is also in german and english, just use the flags on the top right hand side. Cervenka does write his e-mails in english, though he apologizes for not being perfectly fluent...I had no problem being understood in english. You will see the schiavonna in the rapier section.
For a heavier blade, you could check out Del Tin ( see the favorites section), number 5173, that schiavonna comes in at 1450 grams for a 83 cm blade, whereas Cervenka for the same length of blade weighs 1250 grams. Note that I am presuming that the baskets are comparable.
Good luck and all the best in your shopping. That's half the fun of it.

Bon coeur et bon bras
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