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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Sun 20 Nov, 2011 11:23 am    Post subject: looking into a sword         Reply with quote

Hi everyone, i've got a pic that i'm pretty sure came off this site some time ago. and with all the talk of big swords recently, i've been looking over my collection of pictures that i have on 2 handed swords. well this one is getting my attention more than any of them but this is the only pic i have. i was wondering if any of you knew this sword or have any other pictures showing the entire blade.

i'm refereing to the center sword with the parring lugs. i could probably make up a drawing estimating the blade's taper but i'd only be guessing at what the tip of the blade might be like.

i'm looking at this one for a possible custom project. my jobs (all 2 1/2 of them) and my life are at a point where i think it might be time to splurge on myself with something and who's collection isn't complete with a big two hander? i'd love to make it myself but my metalworks hobby shop is quite limited in it's capacity to make something of this size.

any information you may have for me is appreciated



 Attachment: 15.55 KB
normal_swpics02.jpg

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J Helmes
Industry Professional



Location: Lanark Highlands Ontario Canada
Joined: 06 Mar 2009

Posts: 118

PostPosted: Sun 20 Nov, 2011 2:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Daniel,

Although it is not the exact same sword, here is a picture off of the Christies Site. Looking at the taper on the blade of the image you posted , It is likely that it is similar to this one.



Jeff
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Mon 21 Nov, 2011 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks for the finding, a lot of these swords i've been looking at have a taper in the opposite direction and a very blunt styled tip.

i'm kind of curious as to how these swords balance out with a hexagonal cross sections and if the parrying lugs cause a lot of distortion.

i'll have to make up a sketch and get some opinions of what i have in mind. i like the blade style shown - but i would be looking to lighten it up a bit.
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Tom Kinder





Joined: 27 Nov 2008

Posts: 148

PostPosted: Tue 22 Nov, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the taper you describe sounds like a federschwert to me. check out this article: http://www.hroarr.com/articles/article-feders...gsword.php

if the sword in the second picture has the sort of taper and point you are talking about then you are looking at a feder which was a blunt training sword. some sharp swords did have parrying lugs like the one pictured above but it seems much more common among surviving swords that parrying lugs are mostly on feders. sharps with parrying lugs would generally be either of the above type but I'm sure there were a few outside of that.
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue 22 Nov, 2011 9:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for the article Tom, I was under the assumption that this sword shown was under the classification of a type of Zweihander, but most examples I have of these are very big broad blades and some showing a taper out to the tip (instead of in) that comes to a point in almost right angels.

Last edited by Daniel Wallace on Wed 23 Nov, 2011 10:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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Dan Dickinson
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Location: Michigan
Joined: 03 Oct 2004

Posts: 967

PostPosted: Tue 22 Nov, 2011 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Daniel,
This sword is currently for sale by Jürgen H. Fricker of http://www.fricker-historische-waffen.de .
It is object # 881 and appears in their "Blankwaffen" gallery under "Items for Sale".
There are some better shots of the pommel/ricasso engravings, but strangely none of the whole blade.
I hope this helps,
Dan
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2011 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

mr Dickinson thank you for the information, the pics do leave a lot of mystery. in fact from that limited disclosure it would make me believe it's entirely blunt with no edge bevels.

i'm sorry but i'm going to try to shift this thread a little bit, i've recently learned about this sword through a correspondence that will remain nameless. I'm also removing my previous drawing.

sorry but i'm gonna kinda leave you guys in the dark about the project for the time being.

i'd like to change the conversations a little bit. as i've been looking at this sword, i'm wonder about the a hexagonal cross section as opposed to a diamond cross section.

i know that diamond corss section would reduce the weight of a sword, but does it loose rigidity?
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed 23 Nov, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mr. Wallace, i believe that its quite the contrary, a diamond section adds to rigidity. Just look at those swords designed for thrust, they have a diamond section to keep the blade strait during the perforation movement.
Take care.

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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Fri 25 Nov, 2011 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspected that a reduction in the mass of the blade would case more flex, but I did notice that thrusting swords have that central ridge.

I haven't been able to get my hands on too many authentic reproductions to compare this idea. nor have I made a blade big enough in my shop to compare rigidity.

I figured that being I'd be making this sword for myself and I like a blade that has a little bit of both features. I know that two handed swords have considerable weight, even with the longer grip to help compensate, this was my first idea on how to reduce the weight of the blade. I know that another option is to open the full up a little wider and the other is to lengthen it.
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Mon 28 Nov, 2011 6:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Wallace wrote:
I suspected that a reduction in the mass of the blade would case more flex, but I did notice that thrusting swords have that central ridge.

I haven't been able to get my hands on too many authentic reproductions to compare this idea. nor have I made a blade big enough in my shop to compare rigidity.

I figured that being I'd be making this sword for myself and I like a blade that has a little bit of both features. I know that two handed swords have considerable weight, even with the longer grip to help compensate, this was my first idea on how to reduce the weight of the blade. I know that another option is to open the full up a little wider and the other is to lengthen it.


I see. I've made a two-hander (a very basic and simple one) by the stock removal method. It is heavy, heavier than a forged one and yet not that heavy. I can tell you with certainty that the enormous majority of fighting weapons were light, even two-handers. And they were well balanced. As you have said the hilt is big enough to counterweight the blade. My two-hander's blade is of lenticular section and the guard and pommel are plain, with no decoration... image attached bellow.
Back to your sword, i believe if you make a low ridge your blade will have both flexibility and rigidity at some degree.
Check this out: http://thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html
I'm positive that going to help you doing your sword, for as a two-hander it fits in the article.

Take care.



 Attachment: 171.76 KB
FLAMBARD.jpg


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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Tue 29 Nov, 2011 3:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

this article is what first got me interested in these big two handed beasts, secondly is the idea that their a hybrid of pole arm and sword. i understand that even though their pretty big, they don't feel that way because of their leaver like actions with the longer grip.

i was able to do some research on the blade that i'm interested in (which looks very close to one in that article) and a description given to me was that once committed to a cut - it's rather hard to back off if needed. now this maybe true for a lot of big swords but i haven't been privileged to handled them to find out for myself.

now i also haven't been able to make up a scale sketch or model of the sword i'm thinking of yet, i figured that it's best to ask a lot of questions before i commit to the final design that's inspiring me. and the next one i'm coming to is blade harmonics.

lets say, i got my plans all layed out, i have information on how the original blade acts, but the grip maybe a little short for me. i'm a smaller guy and i think that a longer grip may be more ergonomic for me to help compensate for the additional weight of the sword. would extending the grip of the sword change where the nodes are along the sword, i'd be more concerned with the grip? and would you have to maybe add an inch or two to the blade to keep it in balance with the original design?
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Tue 29 Nov, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Wallace wrote:
this article is what first got me interested in these big two handed beasts, secondly is the idea that their a hybrid of pole arm and sword. i understand that even though their pretty big, they don't feel that way because of their leaver like actions with the longer grip.

i was able to do some research on the blade that i'm interested in (which looks very close to one in that article) and a description given to me was that once committed to a cut - it's rather hard to back off if needed. now this maybe true for a lot of big swords but i haven't been privileged to handled them to find out for myself.

now i also haven't been able to make up a scale sketch or model of the sword i'm thinking of yet, i figured that it's best to ask a lot of questions before i commit to the final design that's inspiring me. and the next one i'm coming to is blade harmonics.

lets say, i got my plans all layed out, i have information on how the original blade acts, but the grip maybe a little short for me. i'm a smaller guy and i think that a longer grip may be more ergonomic for me to help compensate for the additional weight of the sword. would extending the grip of the sword change where the nodes are along the sword, i'd be more concerned with the grip? and would you have to maybe add an inch or two to the blade to keep it in balance with the original design?


I see. Well your idea of a "hybrid", to me, makes sense because i am not a tall fellow as well and my two-hander handles precisely like the hybrid you described. Now, about your project if you are being so careful and cautious i think would be good if you could make a sword as close to the original as possible. With the proportions of the original. You can always make another sword with a little more room for customization. Or, you can use this project as a trial. For i can assure you that you going to find many minor mistakes and things you could' and should have done better. I agree when you say that a bigger handle would be more balanced for you because this is what happens to me. I have made a longer grip and that was very wise. Now, for the proportions I have worked out a method to obtain the almost exact proportions and size of a sword. If you have the full lenght measurement you can do the same thing i do. First you must open the image of the original sword with Photoshop. Next you open a new document. Next you will resize it's length to the same length of the sword in question (the program will make the right proportion to the width). Then you go to the original picture and remove all the parts that are beyond the ends oh the blade, the pommel and the "quillons". Now, you copy and paste the original to the new image with the same lenght as the sword. You press control + t. A frame will appear. Click on the corner and, pressing and holding "shift" drag the corners of the frame until it matchs the upper and lower borders (dont worry about the width for now). Select the "crop" tool and adjust the borders to fit precisely with the sword's top, sides and bottom limits. Press "enter". Now you have a big image, in actual size ready to be printed and many proportions to study. I believe that will give you a very good notion about proportion (very close to the original). But the measurements must be absolutely precise. I will send a visual tutorial of the process and i hope that helps.

Take care.



 Attachment: 165.9 KB
Now top and bottom match. Remove the excess backgroundm save and print. [ Download ]

 Attachment: 171.86 KB
A frame will appear. U need to match top and bottom borders with background's top and bottom. Dont forget to press shift all the time you drag the frame's corners. [ Download ]

 Attachment: 158.32 KB
Now you can see the sizes are quite different. What you gonna do next is to press control + t. [ Download ]

 Attachment: 177.62 KB
Note that the excess background has been removed. Now you copy this image and paste it to the new resized document. [ Download ]

 Attachment: 172.41 KB
These are the original sword image and the new document. The background of the sword's image is bigger. Resize the new document to match the sword's actual length. [ Download ]

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

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http://songsha8.wix.com/ricardoartesao
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov, 2011 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks a lot for the steps, i never thought about using photo shop to get everything down perfectly. i'm so old fashioned i was planning to draw everything out myself.

i was doing some very rough conversions of the information i have about the sword, and i was actually surprised. it looks as if it might be in the 4 lb range which almost shocks me. looking at it i estimated it at the 6-7lb range but lack of parrying rings on the hilt probably contribute to that a lot.

just taking some rough figures of the original it isn't huge, but it's not small either. after taking a few minutes with the info - i realize the description given to me about the blade. fast - really fast. but the fact that it was described as blade heavy leads me to consider the diamond cross section from the original - but as the figures come out - what i think are improvements for myself may not be improvements at all.

this is actually getting more and more exciting as i look into the sword, i can't wait to get some time to actually make my model so i can just get a prospective of it. having it on paper is one thing, but to have a physical representation might even give me a little more info. and plus i just love to tinker.

thanks for all the insight Ricardo, i'm sure that i'll have future questions on this project that you and others in this community will be able to help me with.
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Wed 30 Nov, 2011 4:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Daniel Wallace wrote:
Thanks a lot for the steps, i never thought about using photo shop to get everything down perfectly. i'm so old fashioned i was planning to draw everything out myself.

i was doing some very rough conversions of the information i have about the sword, and i was actually surprised. it looks as if it might be in the 4 lb range which almost shocks me. looking at it i estimated it at the 6-7lb range but lack of parrying rings on the hilt probably contribute to that a lot.

just taking some rough figures of the original it isn't huge, but it's not small either. after taking a few minutes with the info - i realize the description given to me about the blade. fast - really fast. but the fact that it was described as blade heavy leads me to consider the diamond cross section from the original - but as the figures come out - what i think are improvements for myself may not be improvements at all.

this is actually getting more and more exciting as i look into the sword, i can't wait to get some time to actually make my model so i can just get a prospective of it. having it on paper is one thing, but to have a physical representation might even give me a little more info. and plus i just love to tinker.

thanks for all the insight Ricardo, i'm sure that i'll have future questions on this project that you and others in this community will be able to help me with.


Well, you are welcome Mr. Wallace, i am glad the steps were helpful and it is my pleasure to help you making a sound sword, with a historically correct look. I make many drawings too, but to save time and to avoid as many disparities as possible, i use Photoshop. As i told you, those swords are not that heavy and if you make a sword matching the proportions of the original, i believe you shall have no problems to handle it properly. And if you do, you can always make another sword, better, with all improvements you like. But i can tell you from my experience, you going to be so happy when you finish your sword that you going to love it despite any drawbacks. About the rings they add almost nothing to the overall weight of the sword. I hope you make your model soon, so you can share the images with us and indeed we going to help you as best as we can. About the insights, i am glad to share.

Take care.

SI VIS PACEM, PARA BELLUM

My website:
http://songsha8.wix.com/ricardoartesao
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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Thu 01 Dec, 2011 2:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

currently i'm stuck at night shift on my primary job - then stuck on morning shift with my secondary until dec 7th so by the time i wake up - i just come here and post and see what's new. but next month i plan to get the full scale modeling done. afterward, it will be time to talk to some makers and get some quotes.

i caught a fever for a new sword back in the summer, and with my new primary job (that pays me pretty good) i think it's about time to reward myself. come to think of it, all the swords in my collection have been for special events, graduating high school, (my first wall hanger lol) graduating college (my first real deal sword by Jim Hrisoulas) my A&A bastard sword 27th b-bay (26 was a bad year).

i'm sure that the rest of you will appreciate the project, so i will share parts of it with. here we understand that we're all attempting to recreate an art and craftsmanship thats from a bygone era.
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec, 2011 5:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I see. Very good. How do you intend to make the model?

Indeed, a good sword is always a very good gift (at least to us lol)

Sure we will and you are right, it is art! I hope everything goes well.

Take care.

Ps: i can tell in advance: make a forged blade with a distal taper and side tapers, it will be lighter.

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Daniel Wallace




Location: Pennsylvania USA
Joined: 07 Aug 2011

Posts: 580

PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec, 2011 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

for the model not doing anything dramitic just using a sheet of lee wood. it cuts fast and it's cheep. good enough for the general idea.
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Ricardo S.





Joined: 23 Mar 2004

Posts: 85

PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec, 2011 1:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

True. But wood is quite trick to work. You must be careful.
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