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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 9:35 am    Post subject: Sword from the Royal Ontario Museum         Reply with quote

I'm looking for more info on this sword:



The info is from Darksword's site. They state this (edited down to talk about the original, not the replica):

Quote:
...presently on display in the Royal Ontario Museum (shown below). A similar model is also on display in the Metropolitan Museum of Art collection....The guard and pommel are worked in brass, as is the original on display in the Royal Ontario Museum.


It's remarkably similar to this sword from the Musee de l'armee:




Can anyone tell me more about or show more pics of the Royal Ontario sword (not the Paris sword)? I suspect the guard and pommel and not made of brass but are gilded, as you can see it flaking off to reveal darker metal underneath, as on the Paris sword.

Happy

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Russ Ellis
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmm it's been a few years but I don't recall seeing that sword when I was there. I'll have to take a look through my photos and have a look. There are several possibilities:

1) The sword wasn't on display when I was there.
2) The sword has been acquired since I was there.
3) The sword is misattributed.

I think I would have remembered the sword had I seen it, but memory is a tricky thing. I'll take a look at the photos and notes tonight.

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Neil Melville




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the photos are of the same sword - and since the Paris sword is definitely in Paris (I have seen myself), then 'Darksword' must have mistakenly attributed the 'Ontario' sword. The flaking of the gilding on the quillons shows the same pattern. What does anyone else think?
Neil

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 10:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspect they're the same sword as well. It wouldn't be the first mis-attribution. They have the sword of Henry V listed as being in the Tower, when it's at Westminster Abbey.
Happy

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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 10:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These two are one and the same sword.
Notice the damage in the edges. The nicks are identical.
There are no two such swords in existence. The original is kept in the Army Museum in Paris.

Quote:
"...presently on display in the Royal Ontario Museum (shown below). A similar model is also on display in the Metropolitan Museum of Art collection....The guard and pommel are worked in brass, as is the original on display in the Royal Ontario Museum." (my cursive)

Presently on display? Really. t would not be difficult to learn about this sword if that was so.

Brass? Come on! :-) It does not even look like brass. It looks like gilded iron, just like the Paris sword. Brass does not take rust-brown stains like this. Why make up a story like this? Or has someone been profoundly confused?
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In 2007, I've taken pictures of all the swords they have on display at the ROM, but this one is not in any of my pictures.

My vote is also for mis-attribution.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What is strange is that it specifically is noted that the Ontario sword has brass hilt components, while the Paris sword obviously do not.

It sounds like someone (Eyal?) has actually seen a sword in Ontario that looks like this.
I would very much like to learn about the existence of a sister sword to the splendid example in Paris! It would be a very important weapon.
If there is no such sword, I would feel a bit cheated, to be honest.
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Julien M




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This has intrigued me as well. In fact I went on the museum website but could not find any clue suggesting the existence of an Ontario sword such as this one (in fact identical to this one). I have seen the sword in the Musee de l'armee in Paris many times and it is obviously the same one. Since I found nothing on the Ontario museum website I could not rule out the possibility that the Paris sword had actually stayed there as a loan. I would very much like to learn more about this affair but I suspect this is all a typo/mistake to begin with. If not it's not fair play to nationalize a French artifact in such a bold way Happy

Darksword is under a lot of scrutiny lately!

J
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Poppycock. I've been in the Samuels galleries a hundred times & there is no such sword there. Since the galleries haven't had significant modification in twenty years, I doubt it ever was. That sword is definitely in Paris; I just saw it this summer.

There is a thread full of photos of the Samuels gallery displays from sometime in 2008. I can't paste it with my tablet's rudimentary controls but just look up the ROM in the Historical forum here.

Peter Johnsson wrote:
What is strange is that it specifically is noted that the Ontario sword has brass hilt components, while the Paris sword obviously do not.

It sounds like someone (Eyal?) has actually seen a sword in Ontario that looks like this.
I would very much like to learn about the existence of a sister sword to the splendid example in Paris! It would be a very important weapon.
If there is no such sword, I would feel a bit cheated, to be honest.
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Ralph Grinly





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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 12:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I suspect Darksword can be a lil off in their advertising descriptions. For example..their Anduril is listed as having mild steel pommel and guard. Unless they have discovered a new, non-magnetic mild steel..these parts arte just cast pot metal of some sort Sad
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have also been to the ROM dozens of times and never saw a sword like that. I regret that I passed along some of that mis-information elsewhere. I assumed the sword Eyal aludes to was in storage, but that makes no sense for such a fine piece.
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 1:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is anybody troubled by the fact that the modern sword that supposedly gets its inspiration from the antique looks nothing like the antique? The pommel, grip, and cross-guard are vastly different and the all-brass hilt, as mentioned, is not like the antique either.
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 1:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The original and Darksword version are only similar in a very general way - they are not alike to the eye of anyone familiar with medieval swords.

But before convicting Eyal over the ROM reference, perhaps its possible he saw it during a temporary display? He only said it was 'presently on display'. These things do travel around sometimes. I have been disappointed several times on museum trips where my favorite sword turned out to be on loan somewhere else.
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Colt Reeves





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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 4:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Is anybody troubled by the fact that the modern sword that supposedly gets its inspiration from the antique looks nothing like the antique? The pommel, grip, and cross-guard are vastly different and the all-brass hilt, as mentioned, is not like the antique either.


First thought: He's probably nit-picking some minor details I will have a hard time spotting...

Second thought after looking: Ok, he's right, that's just ridiculous. Wink

Seriously, what with all the chatter on a couple of recent threads, I'm getting a rather negative opinion of Darksword. Maybe they're durable and the greatest beaters ever made, but as far as duplicating actual pieces it seems they're well behind Windlass and Hanwei (comparing them to Albion or A&A would be a complete joke) and their descriptions can't be trusted.


J.D. Crawford wrote:
But before convicting Eyal over the ROM reference, perhaps its possible he saw it during a temporary display? He only said it was 'presently on display'. These things do travel around sometimes. I have been disappointed several times on museum trips where my favorite sword turned out to be on loan somewhere else.


Ok, so maybe this description isn't all that bad, but apparently it isn't the only one misleading or wrong.

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Nicholas A. Gaese




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 6:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wish to just chime in with supporting the main opinion of this sword so far. I've been to ROM both in the summers of '06 and '07 and have never seen such a sword before. I even racall asking during the 07 trip about any new swords, since they had brought more weapons and armour on display in the main lobby. The reply I got was that to the fellows knowledge, the museum hadn't taken in any new Euro swords in a few years.


Regards.
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Pierre T.




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 8:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I visited the ROM website and found a few relevant links:

http://images.rom.on.ca/public/index.php?func...&ccid=

The sword isn't there. However, further investigation shows that this is not a complete image collection, so it's not really relevant.

I think we may have to contact the museum to find out.

As an aside, I will be going to Toronto this winter - would you recommend this museum as worth going to see?

cheers,

Pierre
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J.D. Crawford




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PostPosted: Tue 15 Nov, 2011 8:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pierre T. wrote:
As an aside, I will be going to Toronto this winter - would you recommend this museum as worth going to see?


Absolutely - it has one of the best collections of arms and armour in North America. And plently of other great stuff.
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Kel Rekuta




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PostPosted: Wed 16 Nov, 2011 6:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pierre T. wrote:


I think we may have to contact the museum to find out.

As an aside, I will be going to Toronto this winter - would you recommend this museum as worth going to see?

cheers,

Pierre


1] No need. I've been in the reserve collection and it definitely is not there. It would stand out like Excalibur in those racks of moderately preserved bars of rust and Victorian fakes. Every blade of any historical value and attractive appearance is upstairs in the cases.

2] Yes, absolutely. Its a lovely generalist museum. Although the Samuels Galleries are dated in their display systems, there are some truly lovely pieces. And not just weapons & armour! The furniture rooms are quite well done with many unique pieces. Nothing compared to major European museums or the Met in NY but very much worth the trip. Also two blocks of the finest shopping the city has to offer starts across the street. If your significant other doesn't share your interest in museums, no need to entertain him or her.

Oh, one other thing. Skip the cafeteria - there are much better options within a five minute walk.
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Len Parker





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PostPosted: Mon 21 Nov, 2011 12:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

More pictures http://tgorod.ru/index.php?topgroupid=4&g...ntentid=64
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Mon 21 Nov, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
More pictures http://tgorod.ru/index.php?topgroupid=4&g...ntentid=64


Excellent find!!

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