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Peter O Zwart




Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: 28 Nov 2010

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct, 2011 7:22 pm    Post subject: 8th century swords         Reply with quote

I have noticed a lack of sword from the late 7nth century and early 8th century among the modern sword reproduction market and general discussion. It seems as though there is discussion on the 5th century weaponry and on the 9th century weaponry but the centuries in between are left out. With that in mind I have been thinking about making myself a sword from this time period using a hilt design similar to what is in the top left corner here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=35405

using Albion's bare type X blade:

http://www.albion-swords.com/bareblades.htm (about half way down the page, though young I am no computer whiz and know no better way of attaching them)

So my question is basically 'is that blade shape appropriate for the hilt?'
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Peter O Zwart




Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: 28 Nov 2010

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In the second picture in this thread:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=14152

the second sword blade looks like it has similar geometry to the Albions but it seems to have a wider fuller. This blade has a time frame of 750-950 and the hilt in my previous post has a time frame of 650-750 so the dates just barely over lap. So perhaps it can be used but would there be any other fullerd blade design that would be more suitable?
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 683

PostPosted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 4:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's only my opinion, but Geibig's book focuses mainly on swords from the post-Carolingian period, rather than those of the late Merovingian period. Blades from the Merovingian period varied considerably in terms of length, width and presence of fullers. As far as I know, there is not yet any serious study done specifically on the blade shapes of these swords, like Geibig did with the slightly later swords.

Regarding the Albion type X blade, I'd say that the fuller is perhaps a bit narrow, but I think it would be very hard to prove that it's "wrong". I would, however, modify the tip so that it becomes a bit rounder and more lenticular in cross-section (it seems to be diamond in the pictures).

What hilt do you want to base your design on? The left-most Behmer type 8 in this picture?
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=35405
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Peter O Zwart




Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: 28 Nov 2010

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was actually looking at both hilts, however I am unsure of their construction. I assume the one on the lift would have an organic guard and hilt attached to the metal plates, or it could be built like this one:
http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/113-sword/a13v.jpg
However that does not enplane the rivets. On the one second to the left I can not tell if the guard and pommel are all metal or have organic material in the like this:
http://www.templ.net/pics-weapons/133-sword/133-hilt-v.jpg
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Matt Corbin




Location: U.S.A.
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Likes: 9 pages
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 334

PostPosted: Sat 29 Oct, 2011 3:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter,

I think the rivets you're seeing are due to the sword guard having a metal core rather than an organic one. The organic components are riveted on either side of that metal core.

Attached is an example of what I'm trying to describe:



 Attachment: 89.5 KB
MerovingianSpathaMWZ (2).jpg
Merovingian Spatha replica from unknown maker.

“This was the age of heroes, some legendary, some historical . . . the misty borderland of history where fact and legend mingle.”
- R. Ewart Oakeshott
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Peter O Zwart




Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: 28 Nov 2010

Posts: 69

PostPosted: Wed 02 Nov, 2011 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
I think the rivets you're seeing are due to the sword guard having a metal core rather than an organic one. The organic components are riveted on either side of that metal core.


That is a beautiful sword and an interesting interpretation of what those rivets might mean. You are right, I had never thought about having a metal core with wood on the outside. Was this common practice then? I know there is the one on the top left here: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/download.php?id=35405 but are there other examples like that?
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Matt Corbin




Location: U.S.A.
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Likes: 9 pages
Reading list: 12 books

Posts: 334

PostPosted: Thu 03 Nov, 2011 6:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a beautiful sword. I don't know how common that style was. Someone else here might know though.

Here's a better picture of the sword from your link.



 Attachment: 65.32 KB
beh4a4beastpomcap1ebh.jpg


“This was the age of heroes, some legendary, some historical . . . the misty borderland of history where fact and legend mingle.”
- R. Ewart Oakeshott
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 683

PostPosted: Fri 04 Nov, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matt Corbin wrote:
I don't know how common that style was. Someone else here might know though.
The organic-metal-organic guard construction is one of the defining features of Behmer's type VIII. Behmer has documented 10 complete specimens. On one of them, the organic parts are covered in thin bronze plating. Must give a gorgeous effect... Cool
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