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Adam Bohnstengel




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PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 6:44 pm    Post subject: How would a HRE/Bohemian knight decorate pommel 1250-1350?         Reply with quote

I'm getting ready to commission a sword for my birthday next year (hopefully sooner, depends on the wife). I'm looking at doing a Bohemian man at arms/knight from ~1330. How would he have decorated the pommel for his sword? I know that a cross engraved or etched in is a safe bet, but what type of cross? What else might he have put on it? A personal device, like a simplified bit of heraldry? What about the device of his lord or whatnot, like the standing lion on the coat of arms of Bohemia? I know that's Wikipedia, but whatever, it should work for this. Or the Přemyslid coat of arms, since they were the Dukes and Kings during that time?

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Adam

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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: How would a HRE/Bohemian knight decorate pommel 1250-135         Reply with quote

Adam Bohnstengel wrote:
I know that a cross engraved or etched in is a safe bet, but what type of cross?


I wouldn't call engraving or etching the safest of bets. Etching is mostly a later technique and looks almost nothing like the modern etching we see done. Engraving is closer, but engraved and then inlaid is probably the safest bet.

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Adam Bohnstengel




Location: Spring, TX
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Man, I suck at talking over the internet. Sad I meant that the cross was a safe bet. I don't know the first thing about how they put it there. I guess I do now. Engraved and inlaid then huh? Inlaid with what? Maybe I should recheck the features about that................

Anyhow, that issue aside, what would be engraved and inlaid in the pommel? I've searched around this site and several other forums, and tried to work with Google, but to no avail. Nearly all the pommels I've found were plain. A few had crosses, and the very few remaining were crazy decorated parade type pieces. I don't want a plain pommel, but I'm not sold on a cross just yet, so I'm fishing for more ideas.

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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct, 2011 7:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Basically any heraldic device could be engraved, inlaid or enameled on the pommel, probably accompanied by gothic scroll-work or other decoration on pommel and cross.

Simple devices work best, obviously, as they are easiest to make and better to recognize even when small. For instance, the sword of Edward III of England (http://www.myArmoury.com/review_aa_edwardiii.html) has a rather complex coat of arms, where the sword of Frederick II of Germany just has the "plain" Imperial eagle, which also appears in slightly different shape on the scabbard (see attachment).

On the other hand, another sword called "sword of St. George" (see other attachment), has the rather unusual image of a butterfly...

So, any "normal" heraldic device (including crosses) you fancy may be placed on a pommel, but devices not normally found in heraldry may apparently be historical as well. Happy As far as I know, heraldry on swords is by no means limited to royalty, but may be applied on swords by anyone normally entitled to arms, including cities and other civic bodies.

Instead of heraldry, geometric designs are possible as well. I know of examples in the Gothic as well as in the Moorish Mudéjar style like the sword of Sancho IV of Castille.



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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check out this thread, too: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=10277 .
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Michal Spilka
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PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct, 2011 10:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
in 1330 in Bohemia Kingdom ruled the Luxembourgs (Jan Luxembourg), so symbolism can be based on French and German fashion (various types of crosses, imperial eagle, etc...), rather simple decoration, gilded engraving, etc... I think you could do well with family coat of arms (check this: http://heraldikus.wz.cz/roderb/l/lucemburk1.htm just to see the pics).
M.

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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Basically any heraldic device could be engraved, inlaid or enameled on the pommel, probably accompanied by gothic scroll-work or other decoration on pommel and cross.

Simple devices work best, obviously, as they are easiest to make and better to recognize even when small. For instance, the sword of Edward III of England (http://www.myArmoury.com/review_aa_edwardiii.html) has a rather complex coat of arms, where the sword of Frederick II of Germany just has the "plain" Imperial eagle, which also appears in slightly different shape on the scabbard (see attachment).



Do you jave any idea of the scabbard is contemporary to the sword, and that it is contemporary to Frederick II? I suppose the Sword of Frederick II is located in the Schatzkammer in Vienna?

I have a little special interst in early heraldry, birds in particular. This one is really well preserved, it seems it is engraved and enameled?

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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've attached the caption. To be honest, I have no idea what book this came from...

The pommel is apparently a replacement from around 1335. Too bad... I wonder what is exactly known of the original...



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Bjorn Hagstrom




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PostPosted: Mon 24 Oct, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Paul, that is great info and a good starting point for further research! Not at all uncommon that these sort of objects have been modified here and there throughout the time..
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