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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
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Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Fri 21 Oct, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Another Accuracy Check for a Painting in Progress         Reply with quote

Question I am currently working on studies of a 13th C. English knight who is standing in the Vale of Evesham after the famous battle of 4 August, 1265. (Please see attached file)

What I am requesting is accuracy feedback concerning:

Maille hauberk
Maille hood: How would it hang if untied and simply shoved back?
Surcote length
Spur configuration
Belting: waste belt, sword belt and hanger details. I have seen the buckle on effigies from the period.
Scabbard: Especially the top where the hilt rests
Sword: Should look like an Oakeshott Type XII
Hilt and Hardware (furnishings?)
Gambson: Leather? (quilted or non-quilted?) or the usual quilted linen I see y'all wearing? Bulk will be affected by this detail. It probably won't be seen under the split in the surcote.
Should the Poleyns be seen?
Would he likely be wearing the leather shoulder pieces?

Artistic license comments:

I know he'd normally be wearing a coif or some other headgear. However, for this piece, he will be bare-headed.

There are references of the Battle of Evesham being fought during a lightning storm. That is definitely a part of the thematic character of the painting. Verifiable or not, that lightning storm stays.

I APPRECIATE YOUR FEEDBACK, SO THANKS! Cool



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If he appears to be feeling pretty miserable, all the better! ;P [ Download ]

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Yuri Serebemnick





Joined: 03 Sep 2008

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 5:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would suggest you to check some Maciejowski drawings(you can check them here:http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=...ew=gallery. Well I think that should help you a lot with the clothing and stuff.
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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 9:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yuri Serebemnick wrote:
I would suggest you to check some Maciejowski drawings(you can check them here:http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=...ew=gallery. Well I think that should help you a lot with the clothing and stuff.


Thanks for your reply, Yuri!

I have downloaded many battle images from the Maciejowski Bible. Thanks for reminding me! It will be a fantastic reference for other figures in the painting. Especially lesser knights and squires who would wear older styles.

The Bible was created for the King of France (St. Louis IX) prior to 1250. Something tells me there would be some fashion changes in the armor worn by the very wealthy; barons, and above in 1265.

I have studied effigies of English knights who died C 1260 - 1272. There are some differences in surcote length, particularly the split in the skirting being shortened, and virtually all had become sleeveless. Effigies being created post-mortem, it is likely the fashion being represented was a later style than worn in life, unless the heir inherited the armor. I know much maille was acquired during the 8th and 9th Crusade from Saracen warriors at Acre, etc. whose bodies were plundered.

Sadly, most 3D effigies, and virtually all brasses of the day were severely damaged or destroyed in England during the Iconoclasm C. 1600. This makes representing a very rich English knight C 1260-1270 very difficult.

Again, thank you so much for your interest in my artwork, and your reminder to make use of those Bible images. Happy

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Likes: 5 pages

Posts: 683

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 10:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'll keep my comments to the sword only:
In my opinion:
- The crossguard should lose the V-shaped appendage next to the fuller.
- The fuller should be less well defined (less shading), as it would be quite shallow.
- The hilt looks a bit long and appears to be crooked (bending towards the arm).

Clothing etc. look OK to me, but it's not something I'm very knowledgeable about.

Overall though, I like the atmosphere and the overall impression of the picture. Happy
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Yuri Serebemnick





Joined: 03 Sep 2008

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michele Hansen wrote:
Yuri Serebemnick wrote:
I would suggest you to check some Maciejowski drawings(you can check them here:http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?year=...ew=gallery. Well I think that should help you a lot with the clothing and stuff.


Thanks for your reply, Yuri!

I have downloaded many battle images from the Maciejowski Bible. Thanks for reminding me! It will be a fantastic reference for other figures in the painting. Especially lesser knights and squires who would wear older styles.

The Bible was created for the King of France (St. Louis IX) prior to 1250. Something tells me there would be some fashion changes in the armor worn by the very wealthy; barons, and above in 1265.

I have studied effigies of English knights who died C 1260 - 1272. There are some differences in surcote length, particularly the split in the skirting being shortened, and virtually all had become sleeveless. Effigies being created post-mortem, it is likely the fashion being represented was a later style than worn in life, unless the heir inherited the armor. I know much maille was acquired during the 8th and 9th Crusade from Saracen warriors at Acre, etc. whose bodies were plundered.

Sadly, most 3D effigies, and virtually all brasses of the day were severely damaged or destroyed in England during the Iconoclasm C. 1600. This makes representing a very rich English knight C 1260-1270 very difficult.

Again, thank you so much for your interest in my artwork, and your reminder to make use of those Bible images. Happy


I had to help since I'm a drawer myself. I too use Maciejowski as reference to my drawings.
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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed 26 Oct, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Thank you, Feedback People! Replying to your posts!         Reply with quote

I really appreciate those of you who commented. I will answer both of you in this reply so I limit my posts. Happy

[quote="Paul Hansen"]
- The crossguard should lose the V-shaped appendage next to the fuller.
- The fuller should be less well defined (less shading), as it would be quite shallow.
- The hilt looks a bit long and appears to be crooked (bending towards the arm).

Me:
1. Lose the V shape. Will do!
2. Less shading on fuller. Keep its appearance shallow. Will do! Very helpful.
3. Hilt is too long. Thank you! The crooked look is just bad art. This is a study, after all.

Now we've discussed the sword. If you saw any other period specific corrections, please post again. It really helps that you narrowed your focus to one specific item. I am working on another study and can now "fix" the sword.

I'm happy you like the mood I hope to convey. Thank you, Mr. Hansen Big Grin


[quote="Yuri Serebemnick"]
I had to help since I'm a drawer myself. I too use Maciejowski as reference to my drawings.

Me:
Another artist who loves the Middle Ages! Awesome! I really appreciate your willingness to help, and will definitely use those Bible images.

I would love to see your work. Do you display your art on any websites?

Thanks again, Mr. Serebemnick Big Grin

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Yuri Serebemnick





Joined: 03 Sep 2008

Posts: 35

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2011 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Thank you, Feedback People! Replying to your posts!         Reply with quote

[quote="Michele Hansen"]I really appreciate those of you who commented. I will answer both of you in this reply so I limit my posts. Happy

[quote="Paul Hansen"]
- The crossguard should lose the V-shaped appendage next to the fuller.
- The fuller should be less well defined (less shading), as it would be quite shallow.
- The hilt looks a bit long and appears to be crooked (bending towards the arm).

Me:
1. Lose the V shape. Will do!
2. Less shading on fuller. Keep its appearance shallow. Will do! Very helpful.
3. Hilt is too long. Thank you! The crooked look is just bad art. This is a study, after all.

Now we've discussed the sword. If you saw any other period specific corrections, please post again. It really helps that you narrowed your focus to one specific item. I am working on another study and can now "fix" the sword.

I'm happy you like the mood I hope to convey. Thank you, Mr. Hansen Big Grin


Yuri Serebemnick wrote:

I had to help since I'm a drawer myself. I too use Maciejowski as reference to my drawings.

Me:
Another artist who loves the Middle Ages! Awesome! I really appreciate your willingness to help, and will definitely use those Bible images.

I would love to see your work. Do you display your art on any websites?

Thanks again, Mr. Serebemnick Big Grin


This one is more fantasy but when I do make fantasy I only go for a low-fantasy style: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=

Some older drawings: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=
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Zac Evans




Location: London
Joined: 26 Dec 2006

Posts: 151

PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2011 1:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My first thought was that his head is too big. It's all well executed, but the proportions are similar to a child's rather than an adult's.

Interested to see where this goes. Keep up the good work.
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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2011 2:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The scababrd should be on his left side (So giving you a good opportunity to study/draw a good period scabbard),

Under the coif, I'd expect to see an arming cap + secret + a collar (See the guy on the left in this pic:

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...&b.gif

The other figures in it should give you some ideas about how the coif should hang.

I'm currently working on tailoring my coif to go over a secret for this period - and am convinced that the ventail is not triangular, but wide and seperate to the main coif - joining at the tie going around the head at the line of the secret and almost touching each other at the back. This gives 2 layers of mail around most of the face. Here's a pic of my work in progress on it so far (on the right):

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulallanbaker/6...otostream/

I'm picking up some cast hooks this weekend which I intend to use to pull it all in at the back of the neck to hopefully get that mac-bible shape right. I'm also changing the padding underneath to help with the overall shaping too.
So i guess what I'm getting at is that when open, as well as the bag at the back from the 'head part' of the coif, there's also a smaller one at the front from the ventail.

Only other comment is that it looks like you have the mail stopping at the sleeve. For this period, knights should have integral mufflers.

Also the body just doesn't look 'bulky' enough. There probably should be a sleeveless gamby or a kind of hardened leather under the surcoat (showing definate shaping at the shoulders). Not sure how you'd manage to capture the character of the weary 'slump' you have with that though..
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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sun 30 Oct, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Thank you, Feedback People! Replying to your posts!         Reply with quote

ME: Again, I have three replies, so I will answer each in turn using your names Names:, or YOU: ME: format :~}

Yuri Serebemnick wrote:

This one is more fantasy but when I do make fantasy I only go for a low-fantasy style: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=
Some older drawings: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewto!pic.php?...highlight=


ME: I sent a note on your Skull Knight. He's really cool! I like it that we both like to work Low Fantasy, and try to ensure most armorial elements fit the periods of our illustrations. :~}

Zac Evans
PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2011 1:58 am Post subject:
My first thought was that his head is too big. It's all well executed, but the proportions are similar to a child's rather than an adult's.
Interested to see where this goes. Keep up the good work.

ME: I did an anatomy sketch before I dressed him. In art classes, I recall the human body is between 6 and 61/2 heads tall. That may have been lost as I moved on to details. If you are an artist, please Message me. I would appreciate your assistance with anatomical details. Thanks for your interest and complement!

For purposes of this feed, my focus is on armor details, but I still want the characters to look right.


BRIAN ROBSON: Quotes

MR. Robson! Thanks so much for your comprehensive reply! I will use YOU: ME: here.

YOU: The scababrd should be on his left side (So giving you a good opportunity to study/draw a good period scabbard)

ME: For a right-handed knight, the scabbard must be on the left side. This knight is left-handed. I would assume the scabbard would hang off his right hip. I will definitely check the link for harness details on the belt!

YOU: Under the coif, I'd expect to see an arming cap + secret + a collar (See the guy on the left in this pic:

ME: I used the term "coif" to describe that padded coif with the steel plate attached to the crown. If I recall a roll would be used with that type of arming cap. That aside, this knight is symbolic rather than figurative, and he must be bare-headed. Can I presume the "collar" is the leather choker buckled around the high collar of the gambeson to protect the neck? I need to see how that works.

YOU: ...The other figures in it should give you some ideas about how the coif should hang.

ME: That will be very helpful! The knight is not the only figure in the painting. I will need many examples of armor use by both nobles, and levies so they don't don't look like a cookie-cutter army. They weren't in uniforms like Revolution Era soldiers---or were they?

YOU: I'm currently working on tailoring my coif to go over a secret for this period - and am convinced that the ventail is not triangular, but wide and seperate to the main coif - joining at the tie going around the head at the line of the secret and almost touching each other at the back. This gives 2 layers of mail around most of the face. Here's a pic of my work in progress on it so far (on the right):

ME: WOW! a lot of terms for me to check out. I have only seen "ventails" hanging from later period helms. Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the base hood similar to cloth hoods worn by people of the era, but using knitted mail like we see at SCA events? I will definitely look at how you construct your hood.

YOU: ...So i guess what I'm getting at is that when open, as well as the bag at the back from the 'head part' of the coif, there's also a smaller one at the front from the ventail.

ME: I have shown the small bag wrapped around the chin, and tied at the back of the head in other illustrations. In another sketch with a bare-headed knight, someone thought the small bag that drapes over the right shoulder was a braid, so I kinda left it off this sketch. I will add it. A challenge--not easy to execute. RATZ!

YOU: Only other comment is that it looks like you have the mail stopping at the sleeve. For this period, knights should have integral mufflers.

ME: First: "'Mufflers?" New term! YAY! I have done studies of English effigies. The long sleeves were tied at the wrists, and the sleeves were attached to the body of the hauberk with cleverly knitted link patterns for shoulder seam, and gussets. I will make sure I paint those details as well as possible.

YOU: Also the body just doesn't look 'bulky' enough. There probably should be a sleeveless gamby or a kind of hardened leather under the surcoat (showing definate shaping at the shoulders). Not sure how you'd manage to capture the character of the weary 'slump' you have with that though..

ME: A Leather breastplate over the hauberk in 1265? Never heard that before. I know squires, lesser knights and even some levies would wear short hauberks with a padded gambeson outside to cover the lower body to the knees. The gambeson sleeves would end just below the elbow, and the wrist-length mail showed clearly.

A second, over-hauberk quilted gamby--interesting. I love that you could see the despair in his posture.

The only examples of "bulky" knights I have seen were two statues carved in the 1920s. Most contemporary paintings and sculptures (in France and England) did not show "bulky" knights. The Macs Bible knights weren't all that bulky. Even the Temple effigies were quite slim. This could be attributed to the manneristic art of the day. I know sculptors in the Empire were masters of anatomy. Their examples might better represent that bulky look. Something to check out!

I wonder if the issue of Slim vs. Bulky is a point of contention even among scholars?

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Sun 30 Oct, 2011 3:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Michele,

Just to touch on a few points here to back things up a little more..

On the rigid body armour - please take a look at some links I posted here :

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=23950

There's a lot of supposition and no hard evidence of *what* was there - but there was definately something. Also the Kings Mirror (A norse written text) describes wearing an extra sleeveless gambeson over the mail (along with the usual gambeson under it).
In all my years doing re-enactment, I've never seen even the thinnest of people carry this level of armour and not look bulky. I can only surmise that the slim looking knights in period illustrations are either the style of illustration of the day or an attempt to show them in a flattering light (ie not fat!). There is also the undeniable contradiction that the Mac Bible never shows knights with padded armour and hauberks - yet we know from literary sources that they were worn together at that time... There's never an easy answer!


For the headger, here we can see the knight with the brownish surcoat showing what I call the metal 'secret' under the coif (with the arming cap under that)

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...&d.gif

If you want the head uncovered, a thought may be to simply have the 'secret' dropped on the floor (the first thing I do after a combat display is to uncover my face+head to let the air get to it, and tiredness usually means simply dropping helmets etc. where I'm stood!)

Also here we have a few views of the collars I mentioned. There are also several other illustrations (not on this page) which has them shown over the mail or just with gambesons that are a different colour to the gambeson - which makes me think they were seperate from the gambeson.

http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/images...&b.gif


Oh, and mufflers = mittens.. for 13c, you would usually see them either worn on the hand or hanging from the wrist (as the hand was pushed out through a hole in the palm).

Like the pic though and looking forward to seeing the full, finished item!
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Michele Hansen




Location: Seattle, WA USA
Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Posts: 64

PostPosted: Sun 30 Oct, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian Robson wrote:
Hi Michele,

Just to touch on a few points here to back things up a little more..

On the rigid body armour - please take a look at some links I posted here : (link)

ME: Thanks!

There's a lot of supposition and no hard evidence of *what* was there - but there was definately something. Also the Kings Mirror (A norse written text) describes wearing an extra sleeveless gambeson over the mail (along with the usual gambeson under it).
In all my years doing re-enactment, I've never seen even the thinnest of people carry this level of armour and not look bulky. I can only surmise that the slim looking knights in period illustrations are either the style of illustration of the day or an attempt to show them in a flattering light (ie not fat!). There is also the undeniable contradiction that the Mac Bible never shows knights with padded armour and hauberks - yet we know from literary sources that they were worn together at that time... There's never an easy answer!

ME: Nice to know I'm not alone concerning this issue.

For the headger, here we can see the knight with the brownish surcoat showing what I call the metal 'secret' under the coif (with the arming cap under that) (link)

ME: Thanks for the link. This will be useful for other figures in the piece.

If you want the head uncovered, a thought may be to simply have the 'secret' dropped on the floor (the first thing I do after a combat display is to uncover my face+head to let the air get to it, and tiredness usually means simply dropping helmets etc. where I'm stood!)

ME: No Comment. I'm keeping secrets. Wink

Also here we have a few views of the collars I mentioned. There are also several other illustrations (not on this page) which has them shown over the mail or just with gambesons that are a different colour to the gambeson - which makes me think they were seperate from the gambeson. (link)

ME: Again, thanks for the link. It will be very helpful. Big Grin

Oh, and mufflers = mittens.. for 13c, you would usually see them either worn on the hand or hanging from the wrist (as the hand was pushed out through a hole in the palm).

ME: Ah. Yes, I have painted knights in mitts. This guy--as with his head, his hands will also be uncovered, nor will mufflers be hanging from his wrists.

Like the pic though and looking forward to seeing the full, finished item!


ME: Thanks! I figured out why you thought his mail sleeves were short. I did not fill in all the details on the study. His mail sleeve will be painted from shoulder to wrist. Sorry I misled you with that omission in the sketch.

I am learning so much! YOU PEOPLE ARE AWESOME!!!

Il est apelée de Montfort. Il est el Mond, et si est fort. Si ad grant chevalrie; Je vois et je m’ acort. Il eime le droit, et het le tort. Si avera le mestrie!
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