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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Fri 21 Oct, 2011 1:26 pm    Post subject: Arm Harnes Time Period Help         Reply with quote

Hi all I need help with some arms I just got a good deal on. What I am trying to do is make sure I understand the date range a set of arms like this would work for. Off hand I am thinking like 1380 to about 1420 roughly. But could arms like this be used later by poorer knights or men at arms etc? And could they be used before 1380 and if so how early?

Also any idea who made them? The person I got them from did not know.

Thanks in advance for the help.



 Attachment: 36.55 KB
arms.jpg
Late 14th early 15th century arm harness? Not sure of the age range that is why I am posting the image.
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F. Carl Holz




Location: someplace out on the water (and probably not able to access my PM)
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 5:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

wow, those look really nice.

off the top of my head i want to say that they could go a little earlier than 1380, maybe back as far as 1350. that is based primarily off of effigies (http://effigiesandbrasses.com/) and the fact that they only have one plate between the elbow and each other part of the arm. however i haven't actively looked at these for a while so i could be wrong.
as for being worn later on there is a discussion on that someplace on the site where they conclude that if still worked then it could still be worn. that is of coarse somewhat oversimplified.

hopefully someone else can either correct or confirm what i have said.

this discussion has some links to effigies/brasses and briefly discusses general time periods of arms as associated with the number lames used in construction:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=23936

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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 11:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ya I was happy to pick these up for $50. I wasnt planning on buying anything but could not pass these up.

Also having looked at a lot of effigies and illuminations the last few days and I think you are right. There are some rather early arms that are like these just not that many. And you can see armor in effigies even that look like a mix of items 30 years earlier with current trends.

Know I just have to look at the other odds and ends I have around and style of periods again to see what I want to put together. .

Oh and thanks for the link.
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 527

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The fans on the couters look oversized for that time span. The form of the center crease is closer to 1400 than 1380, too, IMO.
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Ray Guethler





Joined: 21 Dec 2010

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
The fans on the couters look oversized for that time span. The form of the center crease is closer to 1400 than 1380, too, IMO.


Most people would equate this look to the Churburg arms c.1380. The wing is almost an exact copy of those arms.
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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Like these http://xxx.xxx/uploads/2011/charles_v...arness.jpg right.
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Quinn W.




Location: Bellingham, WA
Joined: 02 May 2009

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 8:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

First off, that is an absolutely fantastic bargain. I think you made the right choice by jumping on that opportunity, as these look very nice.
I would second what has been said earlier in that the design looks more like mid-late 14th c. vs 14/15th c., by the the fact that there is only a single plate on either side of the elbow.
(Versus, for example, the two plates on the 15th c. arms MercTailor used to make, pictured on my kit here: http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2010/133/a/...rocan.jpg)
However, I have much less knowledge regarding fan styles, which I know are a great indicator of period and region. In that case I defer to more knowledgeable scholars.
Still, even if the design is a slightly older one, I do not think it would be at all inappropriate for an early or even mid 15th c. persona.

"Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth"
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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 9:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks they looked well made so figured I had to get them for that price. Now I need to find some more bargains to go with it. And at least with these arms it gives me some flexibility in the other equipment I am looking for to go with it.

I think you are right on the period but not so much for the plate on each side of the arm. Effigies show only one plate well after 1400 just left often of course. And like you I really need to learn more about fans. In the periods we have been talking about they seem to be all over the place. But these do look to be copied from the ones at churburg.
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Quinn W.




Location: Bellingham, WA
Joined: 02 May 2009

Posts: 197

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 10:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Lawrence wrote:
I think you are right on the period but not so much for the plate on each side of the arm. Effigies show only one plate well after 1400 just left often of course. And like you I really need to learn more about fans.

Thanks for the correction on how much later the single-plate design is found. It is hard to discuss trends in armor because so often there is no clear start or stop date, and even finding frequency and the "height of popularity" is sometimes a rough feat. It looks like I need to start browsing more effigies, as that seems like the best way to get an impression of the general flow of styles and technologies.

"Some say that the age of chivalry is past, that the spirit of romance is dead. The age of chivalry is never past, so long as there is a wrong left unredressed on earth"
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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Sat 22 Oct, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Exactly it is hard to know exactly what was used and for how long. Even with effigies we only have a small sampling since they were more for the rich. Any way been spending lots of time looking them over lately. Happy

http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm

images http://manuscriptminiatures.com/


http://effigiesandbrasses.com/

amoung other places and books etc. Research is always fun haha.
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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct, 2011 12:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well looking at all my gear I think I am going to shoot for something on the earlier range 1350-1380 and narrow it down after I little more research. I besides the arms I have a great helm something like this with same paintjob. .

I also have the sword that seems to be earlier that is not so tapered and with the plain guard.

Oh and I have some 5 part knees that might work for now even thought they are later. http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/2006%20M...5%2014.jpg

Any way this time period seems to be a very heavy transition period with a nice mix.
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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Sun 23 Oct, 2011 6:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like these will work for the earlier time period without any problems. I was just looking at the 1369 Thomas Beauchamp Arm Harness book. http://www.artisanideas.com/product.jhtm?id=1136&cid=40
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Patrick!
Just adding my two Íre (equivalent to cents if I was american...) Wink

Pointy elbows like that have been found from the battle of Wisby. That's 1361.
Canons shaped to the arm are typical for mid 14th century and onward, though only better quality smiths only ever did them regardless of time period. So that's a mark of quality. The Cherbourg armour has it and so does other arm and leg surviving armour from 14th century. Notably the 16th and 17th century mock ups for knightly revival at various royal courts didn't have these as can be seen at both the Wallace in London and the Swedish Royal Armoury here in Stockholm. Nor did munitions armour for the well equipped but still average soldier.

The wing isn't a perfect match but still in the Cherbourg style. Perhaps a bit large, but not unplausible.

The rivets are small headed. Usually they're smaller than most think on the originals while most smiths today use huge ones that look cool or to stand up to extreme amounts of punishment before breaking apart. But these small ones are a plus point for historical accuracy.


Being an armourer myself there are several details on these I'd have done differently, however that would be more for comfort or functionality than anything else and armour did exist in varying qualities and fashions. IMO this one could well be a less wealthy but still well equipped knight or man at arms of late 14th centyry or even early to mid 15th.
Some of my plate armour preferences for lamellar elbows, i.e. using the "banana" shape template and then double dish the shape of the upper and lower lames would be more accurate for 15th century italian anyway rather than the time period intended here.

All in all, yes, I'd use this for late 14th century reconstruction and re-enactment with a good conscience. So go ahead.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Tue 25 Oct, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the reply Johan. I think this will be a fun period to do. And how you described he knight that would own them will fit well with the mix of armour I will end up using.
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Patrick Lawrence





Joined: 07 Feb 2007

Posts: 131

PostPosted: Thu 27 Oct, 2011 11:26 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just thought I would update this with related information. I got the arms in today and they do fit like the measurements he gave me suggested. Also by the makers mark it looks like they were made by valentine armouries. The mark is 3 hearts over an anvil.
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