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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Tue 04 Oct, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Jousting on foot (Videos added)         Reply with quote

Ok, So to make things clear I have no intention of actually jousting. Just not in the cards for me (at least for the next few years) But after attending a real joust I was motivated to make a quintain and a buy a lance. Since I couldn't afford a $150 lance I decided to cut down an oak tree and carve a lance out of it. And successfully I have completed my task!

Ok, so my lance isn't 100% straight, but it works just fine. and my quintain works perfectly and in part is an oak tree I cut down. No, I am not on horse back, but rather, I am simply running.

My solid oak lance (with a 3 foot replaceable insert) is weighing in at 10lbs. And I was wondering if this weight was way too high for an actual lance around the 15th century. At first My initial thought was "A war lance should be heavier to shove into your enemy" but then again the only other weight I have to go by is the poplar lances from historic enterprises that weigh around 5lbs

And then while carving down this oak tree, I had another thought... while on a campaign a Knight would have occasionally ran out of lances, would he just have his squires run into a nearby forest, cut down some trees and carve out lances? if so, would a "perfectly" rounded lance necessarily happen every time? or would "rough" lances be quite common for warring efforts?

Any help on this weight inquiry and "rough" lance would be appreciated.

I'll try to have photos posted later tonight if not; then tomorrow definitively

p.s. --Title change due to the fact I found the answer to the 15th century lances on other threads, and thus this thread is simply about jousting on foot

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age


Last edited by Christopher VaughnStrever on Mon 10 Oct, 2011 5:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 9:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ash not oak for lances. Your heavy lance is probably a useful training tool though.

I doubt squires were sent off into the local woods for new lances, even while on campaign. Wagons full of arrows, spears and shields as well as tents and other camp equipment were a necessity for any campaign. Often specialized craftsmen like bowyers, fletchers and armourers traveled with the baggage train so likely at least one lance turner would be available for refits and such.

You need to get onto the jousting forum connected to Jeff Hedgecock et al. I'm sure they've researched lance types and preparation more fully than any other historical re-enactment community. Jeff posts here occasionally too.
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

After a bit of hard work I got my lance down to 7 1/2 lbs, and with the lance arrest I have the weight doesn't even bother me anymore.

Sadly my arrest snapped after several passes on the quintain, majorly due to the fact that at the joint the arrest was not welded. So tomorrow I am having someone weld it together, so that It can take the abuse I have to dish out onto the arrest

Some basic photos of my equipment will be up in an hour or so, but after tommorow I'll have some pics and vidoes of me jousting on foot!

Oh my gosh every time I run and bring down that lance and smack the quintain I just get the biggest grin on my face and the happiness pours out in laughter! I should have been doing this before I bought swords and pole axes! This is just so freaking addicting! the first time I ran and hit the quintain I did it about 15 times in a row and couldn't stop. This is a joyus occasion and venture indeed.

On another note my 3 year old daughter saw me>< and now she gets on my shoulders holding a 3 foot dowel and tells me "GIDDEE-Up Daddy! GIDDEE-Up!" and I run down the lane and she hits the quintain and says to me immediatly - "Again - Again!"

Experience and learning from such defines maturity, not a number of age
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 1:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This may not make anyone say Wow, but then again it is fully functional and I paid a total of $13 bucks total and about 5days of 5hours work time in total






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Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Oct, 2011 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher, your notion of jousting on foot is supported by some accounts of deeds of arms on foot. Such Arms were often called a "push" of lances or spears (or estocs, but that's another kind of thing). This is one of my favorite such accounts because it gives the details clearly enough to recreate the Arms accurately:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2006...pe-de.html

The gist of it is that the combatants would be separated by 17.5 feet using a rope to measure the distance, then they would charge together at a run. There is no indication they used Fechtbuch spear fighting techniques (e.g., the Zucken or Winden), so I infer they just aimed to hit one another on the armor (breastplate or helm as opposed to aiming for the gaps) as they did in a sportive joust on horseback. The intent was to break a lance or to knock your opponent back or down. There is no indication that the lance rest was used, and, indeed, I sincerely doubt that it was because of the need to hit with great force, and there is no indication that targets were used, either.

I hope this gives you an idea of how to recreate this interesting and fun (I assure you!) kind of fighting.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
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Job Overbeek





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PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rofl, can't help but wonder what passing strangers would think when they see a grown men (in armour?) running with a girl on his neck towards that thing :P
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Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Oct, 2011 7:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe -
Yeah, I will buy that house I just looked at. Look at the fun people have around here! Cool
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 5:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, so I finally suited up and made some runs on the quintain. The videos are not completely finished, but here are the first two rough videos, each about a minute long.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is historically accurate in my "form" which is very raw since this was my first pass in full armor. but I am saying that this is fun! Especially in armor.

http://youtu.be/ar4DRNPGmAM?hd=1

http://youtu.be/2mCAecKw50Q?hd=1

And thanks for the above link that was certainly some great info Hugh, If anyone else has any information pertaining to jousts on foot in the 15th century, either in war or tournament I would love to do some additional research into this subject.

Oh, and I had 3 people pull over to ask to take photos and video lol

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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Mon 10 Oct, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher VaughnStrever wrote:
Ok, so I finally suited up and made some runs on the quintain. The videos are not completely finished, but here are the first two rough videos, each about a minute long.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying this is historically accurate in my "form" which is very raw since this was my first pass in full armor. but I am saying that this is fun! Especially in armor.

http://youtu.be/ar4DRNPGmAM?hd=1

http://youtu.be/2mCAecKw50Q?hd=1

And thanks for the above link that was certainly some great info Hugh, If anyone else has any information pertaining to jousts on foot in the 15th century, either in war or tournament I would love to do some additional research into this subject.

Oh, and I had 3 people pull over to ask to take photos and video lol


Nice tribute to Allan about his armour in the second clip and he and it will be missed. Big Grin Cool

( Lots of people may now regret missing the boat and not buying more and keeping him in business as he filled a very special niche market for affordable & functional " using armour " : There are usually two other options A) Cheap production armour that may or may not be usable and B) High end armour that will cost you a lot and take a lot of time to get. Sad )

I would guess this type of practice would help with aiming the lance with all the shaking one gets when running that might be even more " shaky " than when on a horse ? Well, the horse is faster and riding skills or lack off would be critical for any transfer of skills to be really useful. The upper body shaking on the horse might be similar with the shaking coming from the horse being replaced by having to run.

Seems like fun and really good exercise but it must get hot under the plate running. Eek! Wink Laughing Out Loud

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Zac Evans




Location: London
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looking at how you're running I would suggest lengthening your stride and not attempting to go as fast. Make it more of a loping run, which will better emulate a collected canter.

I like this a lot. There are lots of images of people training with lances on foot, but we never really do it because we want to jump on horses right away.

As for your right pauldron, leave it as is and get someone else to make a specific jousting pauldron. Keep your first armour as it was when you brought it.
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Tue 11 Oct, 2011 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for those suggestions Zac, I'll definitely work on the canter like run, and Jean, it gets really friggin hot lol. on a horse your just sitting down, but jeez when you are running yourself... well you can see how heavily I was breathing lol.


Also zac, I have been contemplating to just get new pauldrons or the cutting, and with the reinforced suggestion, I think that's what I'll do to just get a separate set

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Hendrik De Coster




Location: Belgium
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 7:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

how about placing the quitaine right next to that hardened piece of walking ground and ride a bycicle ;-) come on, you know you want it! Razz
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How about a motorcycle ? ( Sort of joking Wink Laughing Out Loud )

But maybe inline skates or a skateboard or a wheelchair and someone pushing !? ( There are inexpensive folding wheelchair for under a couple of hundred dollars ..... or one can rent one at some pharmacies ).

Build a wooden horse on wheels maybe ?
Edited ( Trojan Jousting Horse ..... get a Greek Hoplite to push: Sorry losing my mind here. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud Cool

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Last edited by Jean Thibodeau on Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:44 am; edited 2 times in total
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Hugh Knight




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:
How about a motorcycle ? ( Sort of joking Wink Laughing Out Loud )

But maybe inline skates or a skateboard or a wheelchair and someone pushing !? ( There are inexpensive folding wheelchair for under a couple of hundred dollars ..... or one can rent one at some pharmacies ).

Build a wooden horse on wheels maybe ?


Or why not just do it on foot as in the actual Deeds of Arms I cited above?

Regards,
Hugh
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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 1:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The real idea I had behind all of this, and also the reason for a larger type shield, was for while I put on presentations for younger ones, they could have a pole (just a light pole they could actually hold) and allow them to get an idea of what it feels to hit a quintain. And through that thought process I decided to make my own lance so I could do it myself.

Kinda of like getting a small scale experience of a tilt or joust without being put in harms way... now I have had the idea to build a wooden horse. The concept is easy enough I just need photos so that I can get a good idea to make something functional. Now that would be a "ride" for young ones to remember!

I do not intend to joust on foot, but rather... simply learning how to joust is one of the funnest things I have done in this great hobby of medieval history.

If I am not mistaken one would learn to joust; first on foot, then on a wooden horse, and then finally on an actual horse. Owning a horse is out of my realm, so maybe I could get as far to learning how to joust as I personally can at this moment.

But thanks to the link above from Hugh I can give a decent demonstration of what knights jousting on foot looked like.

I actually just got an order in from historic enterprises with the jousting tip, proper lance furrel, and a proper insert (the one I was using was way too thick and heavy) so the look of the lance is taking a slimmer shape and getting a tad lighter.

If anything I hope to encourage others to attempt these things of learning to joust, know that with some hard effort, one can reasonably attempt to excel where they have not attempted previously and financially it really is not the expensive in the end

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Hendrik De Coster




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

from personal experience i can say the wooden horse thing is absolutly funny!


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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 3:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That looks like a lot of fun -lol - looks like an easy design for that type of wooden horse.

doesn't look like y'all took any major hits such as breaking lances. or did yall?

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Jonathon Janusz





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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 7:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I saw the link to the deed of arms come up on the Armour Archive a while back. Both this, the deed itself, and the wooden horses all look like a lot of fun! I really have to get after messing around with lances. . . Happy

Thanks again, all for sharing!
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 7:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher VaughnStrever wrote:
That looks like a lot of fun -lol - looks like an easy design for that type of wooden horse.

doesn't look like y'all took any major hits such as breaking lances. or did yall?


By the way, the joking about this is fun and it's inherently funny, but I can see some serious acquisition of some of the skills involved in using a lance and hitting something and getting a feel for it: So, I think we can also have a serious discussion about it and also joke about it. Big Grin Cool

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Christopher VaughnStrever




Location: San Antonio, TX
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PostPosted: Fri 14 Oct, 2011 10:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You hit the nail on the head Jean, Exactly my point for an audience (And us on the forums), this is a wonderful thing you can laugh about and speak seriously about. Thats how we can make history enjoyable for younger ones to learn.

I have a couple of students (11 and 12 years of age) at the moment and today I actually took the quintain and a much lighter pole, and they loved hitting the quintain. This allowed some good laughs but also the ability to speak with them seriously about not only jousting in tournaments, but also in warfare. Their attention was held and the cheerful laughs continued on as they took more shots at the quintain.

we all got our start in this field of study somewhere and if we only speak seriously and never make history fun to learn, then people will stay on with learning their history through hollywood Cry

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